104: Empowering Communities by Revolutionizing Middle Housing Development with mddl's Alkarim Devani

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All right.

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Welcome back to the Colonial Real

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Estate Podcast.

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Colonial Real Estate Podcast.

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I'm your mortgage broker host,
Taylor Atkinson.

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And I'm your real estate agent
host, I'm your real estate agent

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Matt Glenn.

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What's happening today, Taylor?

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Well, you know, Bank of Canada
announcement came out July 30th.

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Yes.

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Pretty boring, you know, as

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predicted.

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Yeah.

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You know, I think six months ago,
we spoke to Brandon Ogdensen.

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Things were much more optimistic
for rate cuts, but obviously...

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Tariffs have been a huge topic of
a conversation.

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When those tariffs come in, we see
inflation, core inflation that

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obviously has to put Bank of
Canada on pause.

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So that trade uncertainty and then
just like our economy in general,

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like we have some pretty weak
growth signals.

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So where we're at with that in
September, there's now a 13 %

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chance for a 25 basis point cut.

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And then in October, there's a 24

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% chance.

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of the same cut.

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And then moving on from that, like
by the end of the year, there's a

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50 % chance.

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It's not like it's adding up

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collectively.

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It's just 0 .25%.

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It's going to likely happen closer
to the end of the year.

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the So likely get a 0 .25 cut by
the end of the year.

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.25 cut by the end of the year.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, that obviously changes
weekly when, you know, information

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comes out about job growth and
inflation.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So it's been hard.

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to predict.

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It's been evolving.

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I think what I take away from that
is if you take tariffs out of the

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picture and you take the media out
of that, we as economy still need

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a little bit of a cut.

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It means we are at the lower part

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of our rate cycle, but it doesn't
mean we've hit it and we're going

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back up.

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I'm still optimistic on that.

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Right before we went on, Yeah, a
cut.

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we went on, you said something
super interesting about mortgages.

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Tell us about that.

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So what I've been doing a lot with

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clients right now over the last
six to 12 months, us about that.

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So what I've been doing a lot with
clients right now over the last

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six to 12 months, most people are
very stressed about the decision,

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whether they go variable or fixed
or a three -year fixed or a five

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-year fixed.

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Right now, everything's pretty

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balanced.

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Most of the rates are neck and

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neck.

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So in terms of being qualified,

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most people have the option to
choose whatever they want.

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But what most people get fixated
on is they have to choose one or

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the other.

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You don't have to, you can blend

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the two products together.

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That is so interesting.

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I did not know that.

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That's crazy.

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Specific to just a couple of
lenders.

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So if you want, you know, say you
have a $500 ,000 mortgage, you can

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put 200 ,000 on a variable, 200
,000 on a five -year fix and a

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hundred thousand on a three -year
fix.

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What?
You can do three like that?

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Crazy.

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Yeah.

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You can do up to five.

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You can really like.

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Pick and choose what you want.

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It allows people just to like, you

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know, hedge their bets a little
bit.

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If they think there are some rate
cuts, they can do that.

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If they think fixed rates are
going to drop, you know, they can

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put a little more on the variable
side and then they can lock that

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in in the future.

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There's lots of flexibility there.

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I guess what I preface to clients
usually is like, you know, hey,

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when people set this up, they have
good intentions to then go.

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I'm going to watch this like a
hawk.

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And as soon as rates drop, I'm
going to lock this in and switch

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that.

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Yeah.

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Let's be honest.

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Most people don't.

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It's usually like a set it and
forget it.

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But yeah, it's something that I
think is not well known about or

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people just don't talk about.

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Yeah, I didn't know that.

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So if you're out there and you're
kind of torn between fixed

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variable, five year fixed, three
year fixed, whatever.

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Yeah, reach out.

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We can.

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This is why we have you on the
pod.

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the pod.

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The one and only reason.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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No other reason than that.

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that.

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Yeah.

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We waited for three years to get

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this out of you.

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Yeah, exactly.

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That's great info, honestly,
Taylor.

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You're probably going to use that,
yeah.

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So anyways, we'll keep you updated
on this stuff, obviously.

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But at this point, pretty boring
stuff.

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Not a lot's changing.

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We'll just kind of watch inflation

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and see what happens with tariffs.

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But yeah.

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Nice.

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And then, yeah, today's show is

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awesome, man.

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We've been trying to connect with

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Al from Middle Housing for like
six months.

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I went to one of their events in
Kelowna.

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And yeah, they're doing some
really cool stuff.

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Primarily like... I see it as
mostly education based for people

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that want to learn.

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Yeah.

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Like he's obviously done a ton of
developments himself.

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And now he's kind of stepped away
from that.

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And it's just primarily focusing
on educating people.

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And like.

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Very affordable education courses,

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you know, like you can go to one
of their one day events for like

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150 bucks.

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And I think most of that is

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because they're getting subsidized
or, you know, being given grants

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federally or from municipalities
to come and help people because

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this is such an obvious solution.

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Like, yeah, he's helping people

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with infill housing, down there in
the house, building three units or

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carriage house or whatever,
building more houses.

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Yeah.

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And it seems like they're using

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Kelowna as a testing ground for a
lot of this stuff, which is super

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cool too.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, I think everyone
knows Kelowna has been very

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evolved in this space.

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They're really like leading in a

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municipality and it doesn't just
mean like they're focusing on

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investors, how to like tear down a
single family house and build a

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fourplex.

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Like it could be.

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a generational house where you
want to bring in a family member

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and have some rental revenue yeah
like they focus nationally so i

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think on the investment front it's
probably a little more lucrative

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in like alberta where the cost of
land is a little bit cheaper just

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pencils a bit better yeah but
really cool technology too like

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when we were going over like
realist

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ca and how they're meshing that
together And you can just look up

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active listings and what you can
put on those sites, like a

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fourplex.

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And then you can pick a design

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from the Fast Track program.

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Yeah.

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And then you can pick Crazy.

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Like super, super cool stuff.

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Yeah.

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Like five years ago, this would

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have never been something we spoke
about.

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But yeah, they've got some awesome
stuff.

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So sign up for their newsletter,
come to some of their events.

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I think Al said, you know, likely
they'll do another event in the

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fall, but we'll keep it.

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There's one day course, middle

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school.

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This is a very interesting

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episode.

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He has a lot of good things to

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say.

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Yeah, wicked guy.

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All right, guys, this episode,
like every other episode, is

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sponsored by Century 21 Insurance
Realty, Best Brokerage in Kelowna,

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and North Okanagan, South
Okanagan.

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all around the interior of BC.

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If you're an agent looking for a

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switch, or if you're a buyer or
seller looking for an agent, give

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us a call.

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We'd love to talk to you.

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Enjoy the episode, guys.

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All right, Al.

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So great to have you on the show,
man.

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I met you about eight months ago
at one of your presentations and

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thought you were doing some great
work.

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So we've been trying to get you on
the show for ages now.

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So I appreciate you making time
for us.

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Yeah, no, I really appreciate you
guys asking me to come through.

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This is great.

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So maybe we can just start like

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quick high level elevator pitch of
yourself and Middle, the company

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you guys are expanding quite
rapidly throughout Canada.

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So I guess we met at our first
annual middle school here in the

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city of Kelowna.

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I guess we met at our first annual

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middle school here in the city of
Kelowna.

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We've now done middle school.

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in seven different cities, I think

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we're up to over 1000 attendees
across the country.

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And historically, like I was a
real estate agent, I graduated

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from the University of Calgary,
but I decided to get my real

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estate license like when I was 18.

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So right out of high school.

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And so I went and got my real
estate license.

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I decided I still want to go to
university because no one in my

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family had a university degree.

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And I was like, I'm going to be

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the first.

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I went and kind of, yeah, it was a

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business school.

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And it was tough because like my

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family is all entrepreneurs.

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My brothers were doing stuff.

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My brother is the reason why I got
my real estate license.

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I basically like sat open houses
the entire time that I was in

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university and basically got paid
like cash because no realtors

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wanted to sit open houses, but
they wanted their clients to know

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they had open houses.

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And so I basically like have

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signs.

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back of my car that were like the

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stock brokerage signs and would
settle open houses in like every

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community.

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And I would get to study because,

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you know, back then, like no one
was buying from an open house and

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we'd get like five people out.

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But the cool thing for me is I

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just like learned a bunch about
communities, fabrics.

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I would go literally anywhere in
the entire city of Calgary if I

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was going to get paid to sit the
open house.

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I never sold a single house in
university, but I sat a lot of

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open houses.

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And so it was like a crazy thing,

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but I learned a ton and you
learned a lot about communities,

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what was happening.

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happening, transformation, new

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builds, like new growth
communities.

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And I just really got an
understanding of like what was

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happening in the city.

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And so when I graduated, I like

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immediately thought, okay, well, I
need to pay for my degree.

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I went and got a job downtown.

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I got a suit, a briefcase.

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And like for like three weeks, I
went through a training program

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and I was like, I'm not doing
this.

259
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:44,600
And so I quit.

260
00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,420
And I remember the guy being like,

261
00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:48,540
you know, it's crappy that you
decided three weeks after rather

262
00:07:48,540 --> 00:07:49,220
than a week.

263
00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:50,320
Cause I guess like the training

264
00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:51,840
program, they say costs $30 ,000.

265
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,460
I was like, Oh, I'm so.

266
00:07:54,660 --> 00:07:54,760
Sorry.

267
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,320
Like, like I didn't learn anything

268
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:57,880
from you to go execute.

269
00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:59,840
It was just like really good for

270
00:08:00,020 --> 00:08:01,880
me to realize like I don't belong
here.

271
00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,400
And so I asked my brother if he
would start an inner city building

272
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,800
company with me because I saw the
market was shifting and I thought

273
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,600
there was a need for things
happening in the redevelopment.

274
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,100
And so that was kind of my journey
of getting into development.

275
00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:13,520
So I've been in real estate for a
very long time.

276
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,460
I was building infill houses,
primarily like semi -detached,

277
00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:17,300
tearing down older, you know,
wartime bungalows, building

278
00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:17,420
duplexes.

279
00:08:17,420 --> 00:08:19,380
But then in 2015, we saw this kind

280
00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:20,640
of like inflection point.

281
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,430
So I've been doing it since like

282
00:08:22,430 --> 00:08:22,510
2007.

283
00:08:22,510 --> 00:08:23,570
In 2015, prices like had doubled,

284
00:08:23,570 --> 00:08:23,730
tripled.

285
00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:25,010
The biggest house we built was

286
00:08:25,010 --> 00:08:27,530
like a 3 -boy -2 million dollar
single family and triple car

287
00:08:27,530 --> 00:08:29,650
garage home in like a really
beautiful area of the city.

288
00:08:29,650 --> 00:08:32,730
And I think like the market in
Calgary was always so boom and

289
00:08:32,730 --> 00:08:33,030
bust.

290
00:08:33,030 --> 00:08:33,809
There was tons of volatility.

291
00:08:33,809 --> 00:08:36,970
But in 2015, my mom had passed
away and my dad was living in the

292
00:08:36,970 --> 00:08:37,110
suburbs.

293
00:08:37,110 --> 00:08:39,870
And we thought, okay, well, it's

294
00:08:39,870 --> 00:08:43,210
kind of crappy for my dad to be by
himself and 20, 30 minutes away,

295
00:08:43,210 --> 00:08:45,430
let's bring him into the inner
city.

296
00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:50,060
At the time, the only project that
seemed to make sense for us to

297
00:08:50,060 --> 00:08:52,560
build was a duplex, which was way
too big for my dad.

298
00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:57,900
And so we were kind of like,
should we go and see if we could

299
00:08:57,900 --> 00:08:58,800
build four units?
Because there was four units

300
00:08:58,800 --> 00:08:59,480
across the street.

301
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:00,880
Everyone I talked to was like,

302
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:01,740
can't do that.

303
00:09:01,740 --> 00:09:03,340
It doesn't work like that.

304
00:09:03,340 --> 00:09:06,060
You can do whatever you want, but
you're not going to get approved.

305
00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:08,440
And I was like, yeah, but it just
doesn't make sense.

306
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,320
Why can't you build townhomes on a
site that right across the street?

307
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,160
On all four corners, there's
townhomes.

308
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,540
But for some reason, this street,
you can't build a townhome.

309
00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:15,260
Three corners had townhomes.

310
00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:17,120
and And so hired a guy who was

311
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,880
like willing to do it with us.

312
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,060
We got rejected.

313
00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:21,900
Like the city said, no, we went
through a process called Calgary

314
00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:22,500
Planning Commission.

315
00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:23,360
They also said no. And they're

316
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,100
like, there's no point for you to
go to council.

317
00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:26,000
You got two out of three
rejections.

318
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,440
You're just going to get a third
rejection.

319
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,460
I thought, well, pot committed at
this point, might as well go.

320
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,920
And we went and council debated
for like seven hours for us to go

321
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:34,820
from what was allowed to be two
units to try to get to four units.

322
00:09:34,820 --> 00:09:37,100
And we ended up losing because a
new counselor just got elected,

323
00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:38,700
got scared last minute and voted
no, eight, seven.

324
00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:40,840
And so that was like a huge
inflection point.

325
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,400
Like it was crappy that that
happened, but it also like, I got

326
00:07:25,620 --> 00:09:45,890
calls from the chief urban
planner.

327
00:09:45,890 --> 00:09:48,550
I didn't even know there was a
role on the chief urban planner at

328
00:09:48,810 --> 00:09:49,110
the time.

329
00:09:49,110 --> 00:09:50,770
I got to know what urban planning

330
00:09:50,770 --> 00:09:51,130
was.

331
00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:53,110
They basically pulled me in to be

332
00:09:53,110 --> 00:09:54,370
like, so what were you trying to
do?

333
00:09:54,370 --> 00:09:54,850
I'm like, it's pretty simple.

334
00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:56,810
We thought that we could try to do

335
00:09:56,930 --> 00:09:59,030
more than two units on these lots
because you could still build

336
00:09:59,470 --> 00:10:01,330
townhomes just like you already
allow in certain neighborhoods and

337
00:10:01,530 --> 00:10:02,790
certain very remote pockets.

338
00:10:02,790 --> 00:10:04,670
City agreed, created a new zoning

339
00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:05,990
district, brought us in on the
engagement.

340
00:10:05,990 --> 00:10:07,450
We knew it was going to happen.

341
00:10:07,450 --> 00:10:08,850
So in 2015, we went out and bought

342
00:10:08,850 --> 00:10:12,230
like 30 of these lots, raised the
capital fund to go out and

343
00:10:12,230 --> 00:10:15,030
basically execute on middle
housing now and move our entire

344
00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:17,790
infill, what was a side -by -side
program to saying, let's do four

345
00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:17,930
units.

346
00:10:17,930 --> 00:10:19,950
We went on to do like, I think

347
00:10:19,950 --> 00:10:22,470
from 2015 until, I don't know, we
were like 95 % of the city's

348
00:10:22,470 --> 00:10:24,230
applications on that zoning code
because no one had really caught

349
00:10:24,230 --> 00:10:25,030
on that it was working.

350
00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:26,770
I think we probably had built 150

351
00:10:26,770 --> 00:10:27,690
units in that kind of row house.

352
00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:28,570
And then, you know, 2020 COVID

353
00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:29,730
pandemic happens.

354
00:10:29,730 --> 00:10:30,950
We had so many of these townhomes

355
00:10:30,950 --> 00:10:31,470
for sale.

356
00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:33,070
We were competing with each other

357
00:10:33,070 --> 00:10:34,570
because there was no other
product.

358
00:10:34,570 --> 00:10:37,590
So people would go to two of our
houses in different neighborhoods.

359
00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:41,690
And so we just realized that we
had like really... probably

360
00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:42,630
produce too many too fast.

361
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:43,830
But then, you know, there was this

362
00:10:44,130 --> 00:10:47,290
big push for rental housing and
MLI Select at the time was called

363
00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:47,690
Flex.

364
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:49,270
There was almost like a loophole,

365
00:10:49,270 --> 00:10:52,190
like you've stumbled into this
thing backwards, where when they

366
00:10:52,190 --> 00:10:54,970
wrote the Roadhouse District, they
had permitted you to actually have

367
00:10:54,970 --> 00:10:59,170
secondary suites, which no one
really understood that it was a

368
00:10:59,170 --> 00:11:02,210
market or could work or was a
viable option.

369
00:11:02,430 --> 00:11:04,270
And so we kind of like had this
project.

370
00:11:04,270 --> 00:11:06,950
We sat on it for two years paying
like a MES lending like loan.

371
00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:10,290
We had approved BP, but we just
didn't want to put four more

372
00:11:10,290 --> 00:11:14,030
townhomes of like 650 grand, 700
into a market that wasn't moving.

373
00:11:14,030 --> 00:11:17,970
So we held it and like lost money
every single month.

374
00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:20,530
I'm talking like five grand a
month in mortgage payments in this

375
00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:20,670
way.

376
00:11:20,670 --> 00:11:22,090
Held it for like over two years.

377
00:11:22,090 --> 00:11:24,690
And then we were just like, what
if we just like scrap that project

378
00:11:24,690 --> 00:11:28,400
and added secondary suites and
built this thing as a rental?

379
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,860
And then we figured out that if we
get a construction loan, we could

380
00:11:31,860 --> 00:11:33,320
do a select takeout.

381
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,800
And then from that point, again,

382
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,240
like another huge inflection point
for our development company,

383
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,660
because we learned that there was
a huge demand for rental at the

384
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,620
time, because not everyone could
get qualified for purchasing.

385
00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:46,400
And then, you know, RoundSquare
was a company that we had built

386
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,300
this whole time has really
transitioned into this purpose

387
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:49,620
built rental model.

388
00:11:49,620 --> 00:11:51,140
We have, you know, 160 active

389
00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:52,110
units.

390
00:11:52,110 --> 00:11:52,990
that we're building in the

391
00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:53,670
townhome space.

392
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:56,110
But I would say the thing about

393
00:11:56,110 --> 00:11:58,690
the townhome stuff is like when
you start to pioneer and do things

394
00:11:58,690 --> 00:12:01,850
really well, you get pulled into
so many different directions.

395
00:12:01,850 --> 00:12:05,010
And so we went on to do like a 220
unit heritage restoration, seven

396
00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:05,810
-story building in Winnipeg.

397
00:12:05,810 --> 00:12:07,350
We did a medical center in

398
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:07,750
Calgary.

399
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:08,710
We've done a rooftop garden

400
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:10,150
building with like 20 units.

401
00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:12,110
And so we went on and did a bunch

402
00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:14,810
of things all the way from
commercial to mixed -use heritage

403
00:12:14,810 --> 00:12:15,550
restoration, seven -story, six
-story buildings.

404
00:12:15,550 --> 00:12:17,370
And I would say all of that to
realize like...

405
00:12:17,370 --> 00:12:19,970
The thing that we were doing that
we were pioneering on that we

406
00:12:19,970 --> 00:12:21,530
recognized was this kind of gentle
density.

407
00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:23,970
There's REITs and pension funds
and really well -capitalized folks

408
00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:26,550
that do six -story, seven -story,
12, 15 really well.

409
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:29,470
We learned real quick, you have to
have a lot of money.

410
00:12:29,850 --> 00:12:31,750
You have to compete at a high
level.

411
00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:33,750
There's really no room for errors
because the budgets are so

412
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:34,330
massive.

413
00:12:34,330 --> 00:12:35,510
The complexities are extensive.

414
00:12:35,510 --> 00:12:38,030
It's not as easy as everyone
thinks.

415
00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:41,820
And so we went back and I think
just after the pandemic...

416
00:12:41,820 --> 00:12:44,600
Basically said, we're not going to
do any more kind of underground

417
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:45,760
park aid structures, high rise,
mid rise.

418
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,980
We're going to double down on
middle housing.

419
00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:49,140
And so we launched another fund
and Brown Square was actively

420
00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:49,620
doing 160 units.

421
00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:52,280
And at that time, still very

422
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,120
involved in the city and very
involved in advocacy and moving

423
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:55,840
things along.

424
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,360
But the city of Calgary had voted

425
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,000
to make it as of right.

426
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,420
And so, you know, when that

427
00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:01,160
happened, everything changed.

428
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,400
And just for like, I think there

429
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,520
was like 3000 applications for
this housing form, you know,

430
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:07,400
within a given year.

431
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,010
So you can see the uptake was

432
00:13:10,010 --> 00:13:10,190
massive.

433
00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:11,450
And so it was great.

434
00:13:11,450 --> 00:13:13,590
Another inflection point for
myself was like, my brother

435
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:16,690
doesn't really need me in the
development company proper

436
00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:18,170
anymore, because it's really a
system.

437
00:13:18,170 --> 00:13:19,310
It's a process.

438
00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:21,130
Land use is in place.

439
00:13:21,130 --> 00:13:23,030
There's not a lot of like...

440
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:23,630
change and pioneering and things

441
00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:23,730
happening.

442
00:13:23,730 --> 00:13:25,070
And I met my partner, Darlene, who

443
00:13:25,070 --> 00:13:26,230
I've worked with before.

444
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:27,530
She was a planning consultant at

445
00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:28,010
Urban Planner.

446
00:13:28,010 --> 00:13:30,570
She was the vice president of

447
00:13:30,750 --> 00:13:32,370
Basecamp Developments, had tons of
experience in development.

448
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:36,310
And I said, Dar, I think there was
like this missing ecosystem that

449
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:38,320
exists of people understanding
what the opportunity is in middle

450
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:38,580
housing.

451
00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:39,960
And we basically just asked

452
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,060
ourselves the question of like,
what would it actually require to

453
00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:44,780
scale this across Canada?
It's difficult for any one company

454
00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:47,480
to scale, which is also why it's
really awesome.

455
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,240
Because a pension fund or REIT, a
large development company, it's

456
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,040
hard for them to go out and
acquire 50 homeowners' homes and

457
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,360
then assemble building teams that
want to build at these small

458
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:57,180
scales.

459
00:13:57,180 --> 00:13:59,360
There hits this point where if you

460
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,040
start to produce too many units,
you lose the ability to actually

461
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,460
do this housing form well, which
makes it really beautiful because

462
00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:08,640
it's not like craft beer, right?
As soon as you go into

463
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,440
distribution, you change it.

464
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,320
But when you're a local taproom

465
00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:13,180
servicing a market, you can do
really well.

466
00:14:13,180 --> 00:14:15,680
As soon as you go into
distribution, it changes.

467
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:17,320
And that's the thing about middle
housing.

468
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,180
It's like what was successful was
a bunch of us small folks in

469
00:14:20,180 --> 00:14:21,840
community that were doing really
well.

470
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,560
The challenge was, is there was no
playbook.

471
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,360
There was no understanding of how
to do it.

472
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,520
And the biggest thing that we
realized was that the person that

473
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,020
is most equipped to do middle
housing really well is the

474
00:14:31,220 --> 00:14:35,000
homeowner because they have the
land at a land basis that none of

475
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,840
us could acquire it for.

476
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,640
And so we kind of just tried to re

477
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,420
-engineer the system to say, what
if we put them at the center of

478
00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:45,700
the solution?
And so much of the work we do at

479
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:47,140
middle is working with
municipalities, working with

480
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:48,580
government, working with
homeowners.

481
00:14:48,580 --> 00:14:50,880
to not only build the foundational
information education, but to

482
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,920
unite the ecosystem and figure out
how to get homeowners to be a part

483
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:55,900
of the solution.

484
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:57,360
And folks will always be like, oh,

485
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,800
you're never going to get
everybody to redevelop their home.

486
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,440
And it's like, well, that's really
not the point.

487
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,200
The point is to make sure they
understand what the potential and

488
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,890
opportunities are, but also the
ecosystem and folks around them in

489
00:15:07,890 --> 00:15:10,170
the industry have the ability to
support that homeowner or embark

490
00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:11,670
on doing that as well.

491
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:12,770
And so that's the journey we've

492
00:15:12,770 --> 00:15:13,490
been on.

493
00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:14,110
And it's been cool, man.

494
00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:16,890
Like we've been embraced by so
many different groups, I would say

495
00:15:16,890 --> 00:15:19,490
across the country, not only
cities, like building groups, ULI,

496
00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:22,210
like different groups who've been
really strongly supportive of the

497
00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:24,250
work that we're doing and trying
to achieve.

498
00:15:24,250 --> 00:15:26,630
And so we see ourselves as like
capacity builders.

499
00:15:26,630 --> 00:15:28,810
We're working on, you know,
innovative policy here in Kelowna.

500
00:15:28,810 --> 00:15:31,090
We helped launch the first version
of the fast track.

501
00:15:31,090 --> 00:15:32,050
They're launching phase two.

502
00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:33,850
which gets you a building permit

503
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:34,570
within 10 business days.

504
00:15:34,570 --> 00:15:35,650
We use GIS mapping technology to

505
00:15:35,650 --> 00:15:38,110
identify which one of those sites
basically met the requirements for

506
00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:39,150
those pre -approved lands.

507
00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:40,330
And so again, reducing the

508
00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:41,670
barriers, providing consistency
around cost, architecture, who can

509
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:44,250
build it for what, what can I
build on my house?

510
00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:45,770
So just really trying to simplify
those things.

511
00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:50,150
And I know the GIS tool for us is
really cool because...

512
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:55,410
You now type in an address and
it'll tell you whether or not you

513
00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:57,270
can develop on your home and what
you could develop.

514
00:15:57,270 --> 00:16:00,350
So what used to take us like
waiting for an architect to do a

515
00:16:00,350 --> 00:16:02,390
site plan test, pulling the
address, trying to check the

516
00:16:02,450 --> 00:16:02,870
zoning constraints.

517
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:04,130
We've now reduced that friction to

518
00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:08,070
like it takes a minute to identify
at a high level whether or not

519
00:16:08,070 --> 00:16:09,270
that place makes sense.

520
00:16:09,270 --> 00:16:10,090
We're launching a Realtor

521
00:16:10,090 --> 00:16:11,490
integration now too.

522
00:16:11,490 --> 00:16:12,430
So with Realtor

523
00:16:12,430 --> 00:16:15,850
ca, type in the address and it'll
tell you whether or not that site

524
00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:16,430
is actively listed.

525
00:16:16,430 --> 00:16:17,750
But we've also done a scrape so

526
00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:21,490
you can look at a city and say,
okay, these are all the active

527
00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:24,870
listings that meet the requirement
for a middle housing project.

528
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:25,970
Whoa, that's pretty cool.

529
00:16:25,970 --> 00:16:27,610
Yeah, it's a lot.

530
00:16:27,610 --> 00:16:30,410
Sorry, I know I just ranted there,
but to give everyone a bit of

531
00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:33,630
level sets of all the different
things we're working on.

532
00:16:33,630 --> 00:16:34,930
Yeah, that's awesome.

533
00:16:34,930 --> 00:16:36,510
With that software, is that

534
00:16:36,510 --> 00:16:38,490
specifically through your guys'
like website or how do people

535
00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:40,960
access it?
If you go to our website, you go

536
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,760
to our website, we have a
community and within that

537
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,700
community, there's what's called
the middle GIS tool.

538
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:50,380
We also have a Performa tool, but
the middle GIS tool is currently

539
00:16:50,540 --> 00:16:52,820
beta in Calgary and Kelowna.

540
00:16:52,820 --> 00:16:55,400
And so you can type in your

541
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:56,320
address and test it.

542
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,860
In Calgary currently, there is no

543
00:16:57,860 --> 00:17:00,720
pre -approved plans, but our goal
is working with every municipality

544
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,079
to have a site that has a pre
-approved plan.

545
00:17:04,010 --> 00:17:06,329
And our future state is like,
okay, well, we know these pre

546
00:17:06,329 --> 00:17:06,630
-approved plans.

547
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:08,050
We know that the land that they

548
00:17:08,050 --> 00:17:09,550
sit on, we understand the risks.

549
00:17:09,550 --> 00:17:11,230
What we envision in the future is

550
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:13,730
like we have contractors that know
how to build these or modular

551
00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:15,030
developers that know how to build
them.

552
00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:18,829
Can we then like have someone run
their performa, fill out a finance

553
00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:21,869
tool and basically get them all
their components that they need to

554
00:17:21,869 --> 00:17:27,280
basically say, okay, I do have a
viable project now and I can move

555
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:27,900
forward with it.

556
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:29,820
And so that's exactly what we're

557
00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:32,620
trying to do is take all the
things that we've learned.

558
00:17:32,620 --> 00:17:34,560
empowered by technology to give
people that leg up on their

559
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:35,680
ability to deliver on their
projects.

560
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:35,840
Okay.

561
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,420
So just to bring it back to

562
00:17:38,420 --> 00:17:42,640
Kelowna, so your website, if you
want the GIS tool, you can type in

563
00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:44,280
your address and it'll tell you
what you can do.

564
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,500
And then you can pick a pre
-approved plan there.

565
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:46,720
Correct.

566
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:46,940
Yeah.

567
00:17:46,940 --> 00:17:47,420
Yeah, exactly.

568
00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:48,740
So currently Colonna has three

569
00:17:48,740 --> 00:17:49,500
approved plans.

570
00:17:49,660 --> 00:17:50,800
They're launching another number

571
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:51,360
of them.

572
00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:53,730
And so the idea is like we would

573
00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:54,630
have all the pre -approved plans
listed.

574
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:56,130
We haven't quite gotten to the
point where we started to put all

575
00:17:56,130 --> 00:17:58,830
of the contractors and architects
on the website, but that's the

576
00:17:58,830 --> 00:17:59,090
future state.

577
00:17:59,090 --> 00:18:01,170
We're still early days with the

578
00:18:01,170 --> 00:18:01,510
tool.

579
00:18:01,510 --> 00:18:03,390
And honestly, we're taking a bunch

580
00:18:03,390 --> 00:18:06,230
of feedback and getting people to
kind of tell us what works, what

581
00:18:06,430 --> 00:18:06,550
doesn't.

582
00:18:06,550 --> 00:18:07,550
And again, like...

583
00:18:07,550 --> 00:18:10,010
So, you know, Taylor and I met at
middle school.

584
00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:11,930
That was a full day.

585
00:18:11,930 --> 00:18:12,970
We actually are launching a

586
00:18:12,970 --> 00:18:13,070
program.

587
00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:15,110
It's called Middle U. It's in

588
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:16,510
partnership with the University of
Calgary.

589
00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:18,230
It's going to be all online.

590
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:19,770
And the idea is like, how do we

591
00:18:19,770 --> 00:18:22,120
actually get people through
scenario modeling through the

592
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,080
emotional roller coasters of
building, you know, a place?

593
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,140
And so that is a certified course
through the University of Calgary.

594
00:18:27,140 --> 00:18:27,920
And our hope is that.

595
00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:29,840
You know, we bring people through

596
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,340
a certificate of middle housing
that they've taken this course.

597
00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:33,340
They have strong fundamentals.

598
00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:34,740
It's 100 hours of instructional

599
00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:35,120
delivery.

600
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:36,920
And then we tie that in the

601
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:37,220
future.

602
00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:38,200
to hopefully a funding mechanism

603
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,840
and a tool that can help you
actually deliver on your project.

604
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,620
And so, you know, in a high level,
we see ourselves as like a venture

605
00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:47,060
fund, a venture scale for middle
housing.

606
00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:49,740
How do we scale fund?
And depending on the level of

607
00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:51,560
support you might need or might
not need, some people just like,

608
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:52,900
they need to go right to different
levels.

609
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:54,780
And we're just trying to basically
be that support tool for those

610
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:55,340
levels that they're at.

611
00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:55,640
That's awesome.

612
00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,470
So in Kelowna is like a test spot
for you guys to get all this

613
00:19:00,470 --> 00:19:00,870
started.

614
00:19:01,070 --> 00:19:01,210
Yeah.

615
00:19:01,210 --> 00:19:04,490
So Kelowna is like one of the most
progressive, I would say like.

616
00:19:04,490 --> 00:19:06,850
infill policies in Canada, like,
you know, very, very progressive

617
00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:08,990
administrative board that wants to
see things happen from a city

618
00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:09,230
perspective.

619
00:19:09,230 --> 00:19:10,790
And I think they've been exploring

620
00:19:10,790 --> 00:19:13,790
different tools and they've been
on kind of the cutting edge of a

621
00:19:13,790 --> 00:19:15,030
lot of this.

622
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:16,410
I would say that the challenges in

623
00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:19,690
Kelowna are unique, you know, to
the city of like your guys' real

624
00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:23,240
estate market, which you probably
know better than I do.

625
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,820
How do we actually get things to
pencil today based on the market

626
00:19:25,820 --> 00:19:28,360
that we find ourselves in?
And so I think that's what we're

627
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:29,620
continuing to run up against.

628
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:31,280
It's like we can do a bunch of

629
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,620
things, but there's some macro
level environment things that have

630
00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:37,440
to change in order for us to see
project viability.

631
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,520
And this is where I go back to the
very first thing I said to you.

632
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,910
If you're a homeowner, you're
better positioned than any other

633
00:19:44,050 --> 00:19:46,930
developer in the industry to
deliver on your home because you

634
00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:48,490
purchased your land 10, 20, 15
years ago.

635
00:19:48,490 --> 00:19:52,590
And so we know that there's
viability if homeowners can be a

636
00:19:52,590 --> 00:19:53,750
part of the solution.

637
00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:56,930
They're not going to be able to do

638
00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:57,430
it by themselves.

639
00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:58,870
There's going to be developers and

640
00:19:59,110 --> 00:20:00,090
builders that partner with them.

641
00:20:00,090 --> 00:20:01,510
What we're trying to do is create

642
00:20:01,510 --> 00:20:03,730
the infrastructure to allow for
those things to happen, for

643
00:20:03,730 --> 00:20:06,610
homeowners to feel like they're
educated, they know what they need

644
00:20:06,610 --> 00:20:09,250
to get done, provide a bit of a
facilitation support to bring the

645
00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:11,170
industry together and make sure
the right policy and there's

646
00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:13,150
innovative tools to help them move
through that journey.

647
00:20:13,150 --> 00:20:14,070
And you're not.

648
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:14,710
you're not.

649
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:16,410
competing now, right?
Like you're not an infill

650
00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:18,070
developer, like you are simply on
the education side, basically.

651
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:18,230
100%.

652
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:20,010
Like I know a lot of folks are

653
00:20:20,010 --> 00:20:23,430
like nervous to kind of share with
us at times when we get an

654
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:28,290
industry, but it's like, no, our
goal is not to be the delivery

655
00:20:28,290 --> 00:20:28,450
mechanism.

656
00:20:28,450 --> 00:20:30,010
It's to take homeowners and pair

657
00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:31,170
them with delivery mechanisms.

658
00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:32,850
It's to help delivery folks,

659
00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:35,250
developers find the right pieces
of land so that they can do the

660
00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:37,490
right things and design high
functioning places that make sense

661
00:20:37,490 --> 00:20:39,090
for the community and people are
happy.

662
00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:40,190
And so we see ourselves as
capacity.

663
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:40,490
builders.

664
00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:41,650
We're trying to support you on

665
00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:42,410
your goals and delivery.

666
00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:44,350
And most importantly, I would say

667
00:20:44,350 --> 00:20:46,950
the thing that we realize is that
if we don't include homeowners,

668
00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:50,170
you'll never get to scale what you
want to do because they'll always

669
00:20:50,170 --> 00:20:50,790
be pushed back.

670
00:20:50,790 --> 00:20:51,730
And because politicians and

671
00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:53,730
administration and cities will
always feel like if homeowners

672
00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:57,130
aren't a part of the solution or
not a part of the equation, then

673
00:20:57,130 --> 00:20:59,630
we'll continue to struggle to
deliver within these established

674
00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:00,410
communities because they were
there.

675
00:21:00,410 --> 00:21:01,950
We need to figure out how to
include them.

676
00:21:01,950 --> 00:21:05,490
And so that's the way that we see
it.

677
00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:07,310
We're trying to basically say...

678
00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:08,670
We're simplifying the process so

679
00:21:08,670 --> 00:21:10,730
that an everyday citizen can do
this.

680
00:21:10,730 --> 00:21:15,080
And if we do that, it's only going
to help developers because their

681
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,020
processes are going to be more
predictable, more efficient to

682
00:21:17,020 --> 00:21:17,480
move through the system.

683
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:17,620
Amazing.

684
00:21:17,620 --> 00:21:21,040
Can we do like a shared screen and
you can walk us through briefly on

685
00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:23,720
like a real life scenario, whether
it's Kelowna or Calgary or

686
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:24,440
anywhere, but just...

687
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,120
How do the numbers work?

688
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,040
Maybe touch on financing and land
acquisition and stuff?

689
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,680
I don't have anything to pull up
at the moment, but I can walk you

690
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,040
through what we're seeing work in
certain neighborhoods and cities.

691
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,860
I guess I'll start by saying in
Calgary and Edmonton, again, two

692
00:21:37,060 --> 00:21:39,780
of the most progressive cities
when you talk about infill and

693
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:40,380
middle housing specifically.

694
00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:42,880
So in the city of Calgary, this is

695
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,960
not advice that I'll go buy
something and then say, hey, I

696
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,940
listened to your podcast and you
said it'd be fine.

697
00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:48,960
Anyway, call me before you buy
anything.

698
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,680
But for the vast majority of the
city within the established

699
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,700
neighborhood, hoods, most lots
you're allowed to do eight units

700
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:54,560
as of right.

701
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,780
So on a standard 50 by 126 ,000

702
00:21:58,780 --> 00:22:00,640
square foot lot, you can deliver
up to eight units.

703
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:00,900
Eight units.

704
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:01,080
Yeah.

705
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,500
So four primary units and four
secondary suites.

706
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:05,580
And so the most common forms that
you would see.

707
00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:07,720
getting delivered would be a four
by four.

708
00:22:07,790 --> 00:22:11,190
So you'd have on a corner lot,
four row houses with four

709
00:22:11,550 --> 00:22:11,830
secondary suites.

710
00:22:11,830 --> 00:22:13,310
And then on a mid block lot, you'd

711
00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:17,590
kind of have this cottage court of
a duplex in the front, a duplex in

712
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:19,250
the back, and both duplexes would
have secondary suites.

713
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:21,170
Most of Alberta has laneways.

714
00:22:21,170 --> 00:22:22,730
So everything's parked off the

715
00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:25,470
lane, which I know is not
necessarily the case in Kelowna.

716
00:22:25,470 --> 00:22:28,450
And so that's been the thing
that's really drove in the system,

717
00:22:28,450 --> 00:22:30,110
I'd say the last three years.

718
00:22:30,110 --> 00:22:32,210
And most of the people that are

719
00:22:32,210 --> 00:22:32,530
building those.

720
00:22:32,530 --> 00:22:34,130
When we started back in 15, it was

721
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:34,910
all sale.

722
00:22:34,910 --> 00:22:35,890
There was a transition after the

723
00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:38,620
pandemic where a lot of this went
rental.

724
00:22:38,620 --> 00:22:41,800
And the reason why it went rental
is because a lot of folks were

725
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,640
using the CMHC MLI Select program,
which I'm sure it's the hottest

726
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,160
thing on the market now because
everyone says, you can own this

727
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,480
place for 5 % down.

728
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,940
And I think it's just like a hot

729
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:50,120
tagline.

730
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,300
I would say it's not that easy.

731
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:54,180
We tell everyone that.

732
00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:56,230
And if you have 5 % down and

733
00:22:56,230 --> 00:23:00,250
you're trying to do a $3 million
project, you can't do it.

734
00:23:00,250 --> 00:23:01,630
You don't just need 150 grand.

735
00:23:01,630 --> 00:23:02,210
significantly more complex and

736
00:23:02,210 --> 00:23:02,610
nuanced.

737
00:23:02,610 --> 00:23:03,450
And it's only gotten more

738
00:23:03,450 --> 00:23:04,310
difficult to deliver.

739
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:06,850
And so I would say we're starting

740
00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:09,470
to see the pendulum maybe shift
back to where folks are now

741
00:23:09,670 --> 00:23:11,290
considering to do more sale, not
just rental.

742
00:23:11,290 --> 00:23:14,410
Have you had any pushback from
neighbors about like eight units

743
00:23:14,410 --> 00:23:16,490
on their formerly one house lot?
100%.

744
00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:18,710
Like this is the thing that
Edmonton and Calgary and every

745
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:20,350
city across North America is
facing is like, we were

746
00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:21,310
traditionally single family homes.

747
00:23:21,410 --> 00:23:22,570
And now we're putting in, you

748
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:23,830
know, eight units as of right.

749
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:25,290
And so It definitely has been

750
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:25,600
controversial.

751
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:26,960
There's like a fine balance.

752
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,960
So we've seen really great
examples where eight units kind

753
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,000
of... seamlessly integrate into
these communities you have to

754
00:23:32,180 --> 00:23:34,840
realize like people think the
context of these communities are

755
00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:37,480
wartime bungalows but they're not
because they've always been

756
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,840
evolving so there's semi -detached
homes there's like huge single

757
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,990
family homes that are three
stories that look like they could

758
00:23:43,310 --> 00:23:46,230
be eight units and so we've seen
some really interesting like

759
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:49,770
contexts where they fit and they
fit in a way that has made sense i

760
00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:52,970
would just say to you that like
the reason why middle like has

761
00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:56,330
really taken this solution that we
have to be homeowner centric is

762
00:23:56,330 --> 00:23:58,410
because we understand that like
there's homeowners in community

763
00:23:58,410 --> 00:24:01,530
that feel like this is happening
to them not for them or with them

764
00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:04,450
like as a developer i realized
that that was the case because

765
00:24:04,650 --> 00:24:07,010
it's not like i was sitting here
overly concerned about what was

766
00:24:07,010 --> 00:24:09,940
happening in their community
because you have a million other

767
00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:11,560
things that you're concerned
about.

768
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,360
Like, are you going to be able to
build on cost, on time, on budget?

769
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,360
What is the cost implications if
you don't or you miss?

770
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,700
And so I would just say like all
of those things are really, really

771
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:21,920
critical.

772
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,400
And it's not as simple as just

773
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,960
saying like, oh, we're just
concerned about the community

774
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,360
engagement piece.

775
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:27,000
yeah it is no question a challenge

776
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,720
and this is like a really good
example for folks who get you know

777
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,060
really concerned about like what
does this look like so from the

778
00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:34,840
street this looks like you know a
duplex and next to you know a

779
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,110
single family home and infill but
it's actually six units because

780
00:24:39,270 --> 00:24:42,190
it's got two secondary suites and
it's got two laneways And so this

781
00:24:42,190 --> 00:24:44,910
is six units on what was typically
a single family home.

782
00:24:44,910 --> 00:24:48,390
have to What size lot is that?
Is that like a 120 by?

783
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:49,530
Yeah, 50, 50 foot frontage.

784
00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:52,650
Yeah, so 6 ,000 square feet with a

785
00:24:52,650 --> 00:24:54,470
lane loaded kind of backyard.

786
00:24:54,670 --> 00:24:56,290
That is one of the pre -approved

787
00:24:56,290 --> 00:25:00,030
plants that we're working on right
now with the city of Calgary, city

788
00:25:00,030 --> 00:25:04,470
of Edmonton to kind of make it so
those things can get built as of

789
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:04,730
right.

790
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:05,930
Community concerns are valid in

791
00:25:05,930 --> 00:25:11,340
our mind and there's a lot of
things we can do to help mitigate

792
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:11,560
them.

793
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,960
And I think one of the biggest

794
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,840
challenges we're having.

795
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,200
is that when examples don't land

796
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,340
strong, like when you have
examples that are landing poorly

797
00:25:19,340 --> 00:25:20,660
in community, it's really
challenging.

798
00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:24,820
And so how do we figure out a way
to create better built forms that

799
00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:28,240
land in community?
And one of the ways we think we

800
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,740
can do that is by working with,
you know.

801
00:25:29,740 --> 00:25:33,360
the city the community and
honestly at times even higher

802
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:35,280
caliber designers of architects
who can't make it feasible to work

803
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:40,070
on 150 by 120 but can potentially
make it work to work on one that

804
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:42,250
could be replicated in many
different communities i'm going to

805
00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:46,450
pull up the gis tool too even
though it's in beta just for you

806
00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:48,610
guys Take a peek at here as well.

807
00:25:48,610 --> 00:25:49,790
So this is the map.

808
00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:50,950
This is in Calgary.

809
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:52,170
You type in an address.

810
00:25:52,170 --> 00:25:55,910
It'll tell you kind of a bunch of
details about the actual, you

811
00:25:55,910 --> 00:25:57,330
know, address that you see.

812
00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:58,750
And then obviously, you know, you

813
00:25:58,750 --> 00:26:00,750
can look at the context of what's
around there.

814
00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:03,110
And so here's an example of like
you're on a corner site.

815
00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:06,850
One of the best use cases on a
corner site is what we call a 4x4.

816
00:26:06,930 --> 00:26:07,870
So you see the rendering.

817
00:26:07,870 --> 00:26:09,310
This is done by an architect group

818
00:26:09,310 --> 00:26:10,250
called FAS.

819
00:26:10,250 --> 00:26:12,310
And so, you know, it shows you

820
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:13,310
what it could look like.

821
00:26:13,310 --> 00:26:15,310
And then, you know, maybe not as

822
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,560
conducive for a mid -block
configuration, but this is what a

823
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:19,280
mid -block configuration is.

824
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:19,680
integration.

825
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,140
And I would say like a lot of
these are no's, but they could be

826
00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:23,320
yeses.

827
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,720
I just wanted to kind of show you

828
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,420
high level what the site is kind
of looking like and how we're

829
00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:28,980
doing it.

830
00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:29,640
That's pretty cool.

831
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,440
It just says this will work.

832
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:32,420
These two won't.

833
00:26:32,420 --> 00:26:32,920
That's pretty cool.

834
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,960
That is very cool.

835
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,580
What normally would happen here is
like you would have realtor

836
00:26:37,580 --> 00:25:17,140
ca linked.

837
00:25:17,140 --> 00:26:39,140
normally would happen here is like

838
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,360
you would have realtor
ca linked.

839
00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:44,040
And so now it would highlight
whatever ones that were listed in

840
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,440
that community now would be on
here.

841
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,020
And it would tell you whether or
not it was a green or red and you

842
00:26:49,020 --> 00:26:50,420
could click on that.

843
00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:51,020
That's awesome.

844
00:26:51,020 --> 00:26:53,880
So I guess basically like once
this is up and running, is it

845
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,040
primarily built for investors then
to look for active listings?

846
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,400
And then what's a possibility to
build on that?

847
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,280
I would say it's built for like
all three.

848
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:02,800
would say it's built for like all
three.

849
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,380
If you think about like the three
customers that we tend to

850
00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:07,640
interfere with.

851
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,800
face a lot with is like government

852
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,920
municipalities like what do they
know is possible on the lands that

853
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,560
they have how do they create
better systems and processes so

854
00:27:16,740 --> 00:27:18,260
that everyone in community knows
what's possible because one of the

855
00:27:18,260 --> 00:27:21,010
challenges we have is like when
you have someone that's

856
00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:23,690
unsophisticated doing this for the
first time submitting applications

857
00:27:23,690 --> 00:27:27,470
and then getting kicked back and
kicked back and delayed it's

858
00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:30,790
problematic for everybody cities
don't make more money when you

859
00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:32,670
have bad applicants, right?
Because they pay the same price.

860
00:27:32,670 --> 00:27:36,490
It's not like you pay less if
you're a shitty applicant and you

861
00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:39,370
have to resubmit your plans 14
times and you have to talk to the

862
00:27:39,370 --> 00:27:39,950
planner 30 times.

863
00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:41,090
Like that's actually cumbersome

864
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:41,570
for the municipalities.

865
00:27:41,710 --> 00:27:42,910
And so how do we streamline

866
00:27:42,910 --> 00:27:44,690
processes for municipalities and
get to better outcomes?

867
00:27:44,690 --> 00:27:47,430
The citizen often don't know what
they can do and neither does the

868
00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:48,930
realtor, quite frankly, at times
because they're not development

869
00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:49,050
experts.

870
00:27:49,050 --> 00:27:49,350
So that's smart.

871
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:52,950
Yeah, no, like, I mean, it's not a
bad thing, but it's a good thing.

872
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:54,730
It's like, how do we get the
realtor?

873
00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:55,410
We see realtors.

874
00:27:55,410 --> 00:27:56,310
coming to all of our programming.

875
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:58,630
And I love having conversations
because they recognize that not

876
00:27:58,630 --> 00:28:01,210
only is this important for them to
understand their markets, it's

877
00:28:01,450 --> 00:28:02,030
important for their clients.

878
00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:03,050
So we've had realtors now that

879
00:28:03,150 --> 00:28:05,990
send their clients to us before
they decide whether or not they

880
00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:07,490
want to sell, buy, develop.

881
00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:08,670
Because I think the thing that I

882
00:28:08,850 --> 00:28:10,670
love most about realtors now is a
lot of them are not short

883
00:28:10,670 --> 00:28:10,810
-sighted.

884
00:28:10,810 --> 00:28:12,190
They're not just looking for a one

885
00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:12,430
-time commission.

886
00:28:12,430 --> 00:28:14,070
They recognize that referral, that

887
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:16,230
word about that maybe this guy
will go on to buy three or this

888
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:18,850
one will go on to buy two or four
or they'll be... a developer and

889
00:28:19,180 --> 00:28:21,600
i'll be the person that sells
those products or helps and buys

890
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:21,740
them so they have this like desire
to learn more and i think like

891
00:28:21,740 --> 00:28:26,760
that is the gap that we're filling
is like i didn't know where we

892
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,360
would have went back in the day
when we did this we just learned

893
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,440
by mistakes and i think we have so
much information and we have a

894
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,600
process and now we're leveraging
technology to make it easier for

895
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,320
more people to understand what the
opportunities are specific to

896
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,540
colonna i mean obviously i feel
this works to colonna i mean

897
00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:43,580
obviously i feel this works better
in Alberta, and you can correct me

898
00:28:43,580 --> 00:28:43,780
if I'm wrong, but Kelowna land
prices are pretty expensive,

899
00:28:43,780 --> 00:28:45,640
right?
So if someone wants to go and buy

900
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,890
a $800 ,000, $900 ,000 house to
tear it down and do infill, do the

901
00:28:48,890 --> 00:28:50,870
numbers still work here as an
investment?

902
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:51,850
Or is this primarily like...

903
00:28:51,850 --> 00:28:53,310
Hey, I'm a current homeowner.

904
00:28:53,310 --> 00:28:54,910
I've owned this house for 10
years.

905
00:28:54,910 --> 00:28:58,610
However, I want to make it more of
like a generational living.

906
00:28:58,610 --> 00:29:01,690
You know, I want to bring my
parents in or somewhere for my

907
00:29:01,690 --> 00:29:04,030
kids to live on a separate
dwelling plus some rental income.

908
00:29:04,030 --> 00:29:06,230
Like, are you seeing more
opportunity on homeowners wanting

909
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:10,430
to build four units to have a
little bit of revenue income and

910
00:29:10,430 --> 00:29:13,010
provide housing for family as
well?

911
00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:14,850
Or like, where does this fit best
Kelowna specific?

912
00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:15,070
Yeah.

913
00:29:15,070 --> 00:29:16,310
You know, what's funny is like, so

914
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:20,070
two things I would say like
colonists in like a bit of a real

915
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:23,730
estate, it feels like a bit of a
lull here, like in terms of sales

916
00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:25,910
and volumes and historically
compared to where you typically

917
00:29:25,910 --> 00:29:30,510
have been, I think there's some
lows that have been, but then it

918
00:29:30,510 --> 00:29:31,410
seems to kind of swing.

919
00:29:31,410 --> 00:29:33,070
Like you kind of have these years

920
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:35,490
or months that come by and it's
high again.

921
00:29:35,490 --> 00:29:36,190
And so.

922
00:29:36,370 --> 00:29:37,370
I think, no question, the

923
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:38,570
homeowner -centric model makes a
ton of sense.

924
00:29:38,570 --> 00:29:39,210
There's viability in it.

925
00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:40,330
How do we bring more homeowners

926
00:29:40,330 --> 00:29:42,300
through the process?
From an investor standpoint, on

927
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:43,980
the purpose -built rental side,
it's tough, right?

928
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:45,700
Because you're right.

929
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:47,240
The land prices are a million

930
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:47,520
bucks.

931
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:48,920
You're trying to build six units,

932
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,360
and then there's an affordability
requirement that two of those six

933
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,100
have to be at 30 % of the median
if you're going to go after the

934
00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:57,340
rental model with CMHC.

935
00:29:57,340 --> 00:29:58,640
There are use cases right now,

936
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,700
though, where we've seen people
make the numbers make sense and

937
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:01,280
work through it.

938
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,760
So there's a part of the folks

939
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,720
that are... active right now that
are delivering these.

940
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,520
What I would say is the city is
actively working on reducing some

941
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,340
of the barriers and costs, whether
it be DCC fees, off -site

942
00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:11,820
improvements, Fortis improvements,
and also funding potential models

943
00:30:11,820 --> 00:30:12,980
that exist that make this more
viable.

944
00:30:12,980 --> 00:30:16,100
I also think the sale numbers can
make sense in Kelowna, maybe not

945
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:19,720
so much a rental market, but this
idea of, okay, if I was to build

946
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,280
these units and sell them, how
would they perform?

947
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,020
I think there's probably more use
cases for sale than... there is

948
00:30:23,020 --> 00:30:23,220
rental.

949
00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:25,000
And I think rental can work, but

950
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,420
your expectations would have to be
tempered.

951
00:30:26,420 --> 00:30:30,240
We tell everyone this CMHC, like
everyone thinks they're going to

952
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:30,840
get rich quick.

953
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:31,820
It's not like that.

954
00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:35,320
It's a 50 year amortization with a
10 year requirement on the

955
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:35,720
affordable piece.

956
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:35,320
And so if you're doing this to

957
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,320
make a ton of money in a short
amount of time, it's not the tool

958
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,020
for you.

959
00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:41,860
What I think is interesting about

960
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,260
Kelowna is the type of product
typology that's missing.

961
00:30:43,260 --> 00:30:46,860
So this idea of three bedroom
family oriented at home, I think

962
00:30:46,860 --> 00:30:50,860
there's a lot of room for, I think
if you're building, you know,

963
00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:54,380
Stuff that's going to compete with
a fairly robust condo market,

964
00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:56,600
rental market in the apartment
side, it's going to be tough.

965
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,280
And so there's room for sure, but
it's got to be in the housing

966
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,400
diversity and options that you're
building.

967
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,540
So you mentioned earlier about
modular.

968
00:31:01,540 --> 00:31:03,100
So you mentioned earlier about
modular.

969
00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:05,120
So is modular a solution for some
of this?

970
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:05,860
Yeah, yeah.

971
00:31:05,860 --> 00:31:08,360
So a few of the pre -improved

972
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,520
plans that were designed were
actually modular ready.

973
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,780
And so they were fully... designed
so that you can deliver modularly

974
00:31:12,780 --> 00:31:16,680
what i would say is like again the
same complexities and limitations

975
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,960
right like there's not a lot of
people that have done modular

976
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,740
especially at the infill scale but
then also like what are the

977
00:31:20,740 --> 00:31:22,740
complexities that come along with
it but then what are the

978
00:31:22,740 --> 00:31:26,020
limitations so you get outside of
like there's not a lot of

979
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,520
customization that can happen in
these things and so You get this

980
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:29,520
huge efficiency in terms of
timeline.

981
00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:30,500
You get some cost efficiencies.

982
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:31,600
Sometimes it's even at par.

983
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,680
But the challenge today is like
there's this gap for modular where

984
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,760
if you're going to provide modular
construction, who funds like the

985
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,320
building of those?
Generally speaking, when you're

986
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,980
doing construction draws, you get
draws based on how far you've

987
00:31:41,980 --> 00:31:42,760
gotten on site.

988
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,920
Traditionally, banks don't fund

989
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,740
mods that are being built in a
factory until they arrive at site.

990
00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:48,700
But factories need 100 % payment
once those things leave factory.

991
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:51,700
There's a huge funding gap that
hasn't quite been solved about who

992
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:53,380
deals with that portion of the
funding.

993
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:53,660
Interesting.

994
00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:54,100
I haven't heard that.

995
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:54,360
funding.

996
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:54,640
Interesting.

997
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,000
I haven't heard that.

998
00:31:56,220 --> 00:31:56,760
That's interesting.

999
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:57,900
It's a good point.

1000
00:31:57,980 --> 00:31:59,400
When you hear about modular and

1001
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,040
you hear about this, to me, it
just makes so much sense.

1002
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,820
And I just don't understand why we
don't see it.

1003
00:32:03,820 --> 00:32:04,120
At all.

1004
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,420
I guess that answers a bit why.

1005
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:09,360
Modular factories are good at
producing modular homes.

1006
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,100
They're not necessarily good at
the last mile logistics of on

1007
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:13,460
-site construction, delivery and
placement.

1008
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,480
And so if you're a modular factory
and you're staying in your own

1009
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,940
lane and you can produce these
homes.

1010
00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:23,500
Someone's got to deal with the
transportation, trucking, and

1011
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:23,720
logistics.

1012
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,180
And then someone else has to deal

1013
00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:26,040
with the onsites.

1014
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:27,680
And so if you go to a general GC

1015
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,320
and say, a general contractor, I
need you to do all my service

1016
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,650
hookups, landscaping, foundations,
but that's it.

1017
00:32:32,650 --> 00:32:34,950
You're taking away like 70 % of
their scope.

1018
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:39,530
Why would a GC want to only do
that part of the scope and not the

1019
00:32:39,530 --> 00:32:40,670
rest?
And so what we're finding is like

1020
00:32:40,670 --> 00:32:42,830
there isn't enough people who are
just experts in delivery of

1021
00:32:42,830 --> 00:32:45,670
modular because it's never really
caught on at scale.

1022
00:32:45,670 --> 00:32:48,430
And so part of what I think we
need to see is a bit of an

1023
00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:48,550
upscaling.

1024
00:32:48,550 --> 00:32:49,830
of what that last module logistics

1025
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:50,610
looks like.

1026
00:32:50,610 --> 00:32:50,730
Opportunity.

1027
00:32:50,730 --> 00:32:51,030
Anyone listening.

1028
00:32:51,030 --> 00:32:51,990
You know, it's funny.

1029
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:54,310
We did have Ryan Smith on from
City of Kelowna.

1030
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:55,610
Yeah, a few episodes ago.

1031
00:32:55,610 --> 00:32:57,230
And we were kind of speaking about

1032
00:32:57,230 --> 00:32:58,450
some of this as well.

1033
00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:00,620
But to stay on like the funding

1034
00:33:00,620 --> 00:33:02,860
point that there's that bit of a
gap there.

1035
00:33:02,860 --> 00:33:05,680
It's similar to, you know, if a
homeowner owns their home, but

1036
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,580
they can't qualify for like the
equity takeout to start this

1037
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:08,680
process.

1038
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,040
It seems like you guys are way

1039
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,560
ahead of the curve on everything
else.

1040
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:12,520
And kind of you're working with
the government as well.

1041
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,500
Do you see anything coming down
the pipeline that would help

1042
00:33:15,780 --> 00:33:17,860
facilitate, like a homeowner has
their property, they have a bunch

1043
00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:21,220
of equity, but they have no
income, so they can't

1044
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:23,130
conventionally qualify for a
mortgage.

1045
00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:26,670
Are there any programs that are
coming down the pipe to help them

1046
00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:30,250
do some of these infill projects?
Like if that's the barrier for

1047
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:32,910
them right now?
I think there's been a lot of

1048
00:33:32,910 --> 00:33:35,430
conversation around this idea of
being cash core, think there's

1049
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:38,050
been a lot of conversation around
this idea of being cash core, but

1050
00:33:38,050 --> 00:33:40,470
house rich, right?
Like if you think about our

1051
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:42,030
boomers are historically the one
who bought it.

1052
00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:44,760
There's a ton of people like that.

1053
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,840
it. There's a ton of people like

1054
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,340
that.

1055
00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:47,940
Yes.

1056
00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:48,120
Yeah.

1057
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:48,400
Yeah.

1058
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,380
And so we've done a lot of
networking exercises.

1059
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:54,500
We've done surveys and intakes to
understand what is that capital

1060
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:59,380
stack barrier that we need to get
them to a project.

1061
00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:03,940
And then even once you get them to
the project, what is the approval

1062
00:34:03,940 --> 00:34:05,900
requirements to actually proceed
forward with the development?

1063
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:10,020
I think there's a model there, no
question.

1064
00:34:10,020 --> 00:34:13,699
I think the question is, is how do
you shore up the risk, right?

1065
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,520
Because there's an equity stack
risk that needs to be shored up

1066
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,920
for whoever funds that initial
equity stack.

1067
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,800
But also like, this is the thing
that I think is going to take time

1068
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:24,800
and it's not going to happen
overnight.

1069
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:26,860
A homeowner who lives in the
community, for them to think that

1070
00:34:26,860 --> 00:34:28,580
a boomer is going to become a
developer, it's a hard thing,

1071
00:34:28,620 --> 00:34:30,120
right?
You're going to go out and take on

1072
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,679
a $3 million construction project
when you've never done any of this

1073
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:36,560
before, and you've got to go live
somewhere for, let's call it, 12

1074
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:37,639
months.

1075
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:38,940
And you're retired.

1076
00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:39,440
Yeah.

1077
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,000
So what I would say to you is that

1078
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,900
person is showing up with us in
small amounts, but when they do

1079
00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:47,940
show up, it's generally with their
kids.

1080
00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:50,429
Like their kids are young
professionals who need homes, who

1081
00:34:50,429 --> 00:34:53,270
are renting and who are like
understanding that this is an

1082
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:54,010
opportunity for them now.

1083
00:34:54,010 --> 00:34:55,650
And so you kind of need that

1084
00:34:55,650 --> 00:34:55,790
community.

1085
00:34:55,790 --> 00:34:56,790
Like it takes a village.

1086
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:59,830
And I would say the financing
piece is one part, but then the

1087
00:34:59,830 --> 00:35:05,290
actual cultural risk aversion
piece is just a whole nother layer

1088
00:35:05,290 --> 00:35:07,010
that we're trying to unpack.

1089
00:35:07,210 --> 00:35:09,230
part of it is like they don't know

1090
00:35:09,230 --> 00:35:10,170
what they don't know.

1091
00:35:10,170 --> 00:35:12,380
And so if we don't have a

1092
00:35:12,380 --> 00:35:14,240
foundation of education or
information or understanding the

1093
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:18,120
process, if we don't have good
examples of people who have moved

1094
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,340
through the system, that could be
those early adopters who have

1095
00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:21,720
successfully done it.

1096
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:22,280
None of this matters.

1097
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,330
And so I would say those first few
in community are going to be

1098
00:35:26,330 --> 00:35:30,630
absolutely critical, not only to
do well for those people who

1099
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:32,010
embark on this, but to land well.

1100
00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:33,910
And the people that can do it

1101
00:35:34,090 --> 00:35:34,770
right now are the developers,
right?

1102
00:35:34,770 --> 00:35:37,190
Are the realtors, are the
investors, are the folks who are

1103
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:37,350
savvy.

1104
00:35:37,350 --> 00:35:39,390
And what we... need to do a better

1105
00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:42,530
job at is I think making sure
those projects are landing well in

1106
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:45,530
community so that we can work with
homeowners eventually in

1107
00:35:45,530 --> 00:35:49,090
communities, the citizens and
cities to actually allow for this

1108
00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:50,130
to happen at a more robust,
scalable way.

1109
00:35:50,130 --> 00:35:51,170
going to go Yeah, totally.

1110
00:35:51,330 --> 00:35:51,350
Totally.

1111
00:35:51,350 --> 00:35:54,090
And I guess if someone is
interested, what does it look like

1112
00:35:54,090 --> 00:35:57,210
to work with you guys?
Like, what's the cost?

1113
00:35:57,210 --> 00:36:00,470
I know you're talking about like,
you know, the 100 hour course, you

1114
00:36:00,470 --> 00:36:02,690
put on some of these daily things.

1115
00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:04,390
I think some of the cost is

1116
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:06,210
potentially subsidized by the
city, which is great.

1117
00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:08,530
But yeah, can you walk us through
what it looks like if someone

1118
00:36:08,530 --> 00:36:11,250
wants to work with you?
We kind of have a suite of product

1119
00:36:11,250 --> 00:36:13,970
tools that we built as a way to
kind of help folks through

1120
00:36:13,970 --> 00:36:11,470
navigating the system.

1121
00:36:11,470 --> 00:36:11,890
So our middle school.

1122
00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:14,610
Depending on the municipality, if
we have a partnership or not,

1123
00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:16,930
anywhere from like $100 to $350,
$500 for the full day.

1124
00:36:16,930 --> 00:36:18,710
And so that you spend a full day.

1125
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:18,350
We bring in experts from every

1126
00:36:18,510 --> 00:36:20,030
field to come in and chat.

1127
00:36:20,030 --> 00:36:22,420
We have a networking event.

1128
00:36:22,420 --> 00:36:25,860
Oftentimes, we'll have a walking
tour depending on the community

1129
00:36:25,860 --> 00:36:27,000
that we're in.

1130
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,840
But it's essentially like giving

1131
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,180
you as much information as we can
in kind of a boot camp style one

1132
00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:33,520
-day event.

1133
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:34,240
And then after that, we've

1134
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,840
launched Middle U, which we'll
launch in the fall.

1135
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,490
That program is going to be kind
of in that $3 ,000 range.

1136
00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:44,710
for 100 hours of instructional
hours with a certification at the

1137
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:44,850
end.

1138
00:36:44,850 --> 00:36:46,150
Again, there'll be some

1139
00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:49,130
opportunities, we're hoping, where
that's subsidized and funded,

1140
00:36:49,130 --> 00:36:52,570
depending on where you're coming
from or the groups that we get to

1141
00:36:52,570 --> 00:36:53,970
fund that program.

1142
00:36:53,970 --> 00:36:55,370
But after that, let's say you're

1143
00:36:55,370 --> 00:36:57,470
moving through and you have a real
live project and you want to move.

1144
00:36:57,470 --> 00:37:01,200
We launched two programs in
earnest as a response to the

1145
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:01,420
education.

1146
00:37:01,420 --> 00:37:03,120
One of them was called our

1147
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,180
Accelerator.

1148
00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:04,980
So we have over 70 experts from

1149
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,900
across Canada that have all worked
in the middle housing space.

1150
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:08,320
developers, accountants, lawyers,
surveyors, like...

1151
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,640
Just builders, anyone you can
think of who have basically said

1152
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,120
they're willing to donate their
time and sit down with people for

1153
00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:15,700
an hour to learn and give them
information and feedback on their

1154
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:15,880
project.

1155
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,300
It's an hourly rate.

1156
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:20,300
We pay those folks.

1157
00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:21,720
That's a program where we're still

1158
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:23,020
retooling, but we think is
incredibly powerful.

1159
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:28,410
So the accelerator is a great way
for someone to say, I want to talk

1160
00:37:28,410 --> 00:37:32,790
to this person about financing
because I need to know if I can do

1161
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:33,150
this.

1162
00:37:33,150 --> 00:37:35,330
Or I want to talk to this person

1163
00:37:35,330 --> 00:37:36,230
about building within this
specific jurisdiction.

1164
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:38,510
That's a tool that we have on our
website.

1165
00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:42,030
The next one that we have is kind
of our master's program.

1166
00:37:42,030 --> 00:37:45,200
And I would say that this one,
we're refining two levels of

1167
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:45,360
master.

1168
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,820
One is like, we meet with you once

1169
00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:47,280
a month.

1170
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,660
You bring anything you want to go

1171
00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:49,120
over.

1172
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,000
We go over that on your project.

1173
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,920
It's kind of an opportunity for
you to have another set of eyes to

1174
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,240
ask questions because often it's
lonely.

1175
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,760
Like you don't know who has your
best interest.

1176
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:00,820
You have an architect, you have a
builder, but everyone's getting

1177
00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:02,280
paid to do something and deliver
for you.

1178
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,080
And oftentimes you don't know if
that's the best thing.

1179
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,700
And so that I remember, you know,
in my journey, that would happen

1180
00:38:07,700 --> 00:38:08,160
all the time.

1181
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,700
Contractor said he could build

1182
00:38:09,980 --> 00:38:10,080
something.

1183
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,120
Designer said that it was

1184
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:11,620
feasible.

1185
00:38:11,620 --> 00:38:13,760
And then you get to go do it.

1186
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,100
And they're like, oh yeah, no, no,
we didn't know that it would be

1187
00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:17,800
that much.

1188
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,820
And it's like, it's triple the

1189
00:38:19,820 --> 00:38:21,460
price that you both told me.

1190
00:38:21,460 --> 00:38:23,320
I could deliver this for.

1191
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,660
And so we try to add as like
another set of eyes, oftentimes on

1192
00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:29,740
larger projects, like folks will
hire what's called like an owner's

1193
00:38:29,740 --> 00:38:29,960
rep.

1194
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,640
And that's like for folks to have

1195
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,180
someone on the ground on large
projects to basically represent

1196
00:38:33,180 --> 00:38:33,600
their interests.

1197
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,080
We're trying to do this in a

1198
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,540
little bit of an augmented way on
smaller scale projects to bring

1199
00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:38,500
all the expertise.

1200
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:40,160
And so that's kind of like a

1201
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,860
coaching, a one hour session that
we do monthly with folks.

1202
00:38:42,860 --> 00:38:44,080
We've launched another program,
which is basically like a tool

1203
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,480
that we're currently building
where it's an augmented

1204
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:45,680
development.

1205
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:46,500
management tool where we build

1206
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:47,160
this interface.

1207
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,480
And the hope of that interface is

1208
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,080
to basically work with you on a
more consistent weekly basis where

1209
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,830
you're still going to need a
builder, probably maybe a

1210
00:38:53,830 --> 00:38:58,030
developer, or you're still going
to need all those pieces, but

1211
00:38:58,030 --> 00:39:00,930
we're building a framework tool
that allows you to interface with

1212
00:39:00,930 --> 00:39:01,870
us, track your developments.

1213
00:39:01,870 --> 00:39:03,730
We're trying to like outline every

1214
00:39:03,730 --> 00:39:06,570
single step that needs to be done,
almost give you like a digital

1215
00:39:06,570 --> 00:39:09,370
dashboard where, you know, it's
going to be as valuable as you

1216
00:39:09,370 --> 00:39:11,930
make it based on the information
that you put in.

1217
00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:13,150
Again, this is something that
we've been contemplating.

1218
00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:13,390
contemplating.

1219
00:39:13,390 --> 00:39:15,230
We have two customers right now

1220
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:17,570
that are kind of in that more
advanced program.

1221
00:39:17,570 --> 00:39:19,210
We've also funded a few
demonstration projects based on

1222
00:39:19,210 --> 00:39:22,060
what you just talked about,
Taylor, this idea of we were to

1223
00:39:22,060 --> 00:39:26,480
fund that capital stack portion on
a few projects, would that unlock

1224
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,440
a few projects?
And so we're funding a first time

1225
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,420
homeowner right now who had a
capital stack gap to help them get

1226
00:39:32,420 --> 00:39:33,160
over the finish line.

1227
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:33,360
Cool.

1228
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,860
That is pretty awesome.

1229
00:39:34,980 --> 00:39:36,740
We had Steven Jagger from Addy

1230
00:39:36,740 --> 00:39:37,680
come on as well.

1231
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,880
I know he was, I don't know if he

1232
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,020
was working with you guys or not,
but he... did start one of the

1233
00:39:44,020 --> 00:39:47,580
first fast track programs in
Kelowna to try and facilitate some

1234
00:39:47,580 --> 00:39:48,220
of this.

1235
00:39:48,220 --> 00:39:49,760
So it'd be interesting to see if

1236
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,560
they get into funding some of
these as well, like some

1237
00:39:54,820 --> 00:39:55,040
crowdfunding.

1238
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:55,260
Yeah.

1239
00:39:55,260 --> 00:39:55,400
Yeah.

1240
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,020
We launched one of our projects on

1241
00:39:57,020 --> 00:39:58,040
Addy as a crowdfunding project.

1242
00:39:58,040 --> 00:39:59,360
We raised, I think it was 150 ,000

1243
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,440
through Addy on a demonstration
project.

1244
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,400
I love what those guys are after.

1245
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,820
I think there's a lot of room in

1246
00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:07,440
that idea of like, you know, for
community by community, if you

1247
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,520
could kind of get a bunch of
people behind the program, what I

1248
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,840
would say about Addy is like,
still so complex and nuanced.

1249
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,800
And there's so much money that
needs to be paid before you even

1250
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,700
know whether or not you're going
to have a successful project.

1251
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:21,420
And so for me, it's like we have
to find a better way to move

1252
00:40:21,420 --> 00:40:23,440
through that system because we're
pretty sophisticated in terms of

1253
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,800
our development, our understanding
of legal contracts, what's

1254
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:25,280
required.

1255
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,620
And I would say if we have a tough

1256
00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:28,980
time navigating that process, you
can imagine.

1257
00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:30,580
a citizen's even going to have a
tougher time.

1258
00:40:30,580 --> 00:40:33,380
And I would say, let alone the
complexity, even if you get

1259
00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:34,780
through the complexities and
navigating that process, why would

1260
00:40:34,780 --> 00:40:36,960
you ever fund someone who's never
done this before?

1261
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,980
Like in a market right now where
people are fairly nervous about

1262
00:40:38,980 --> 00:40:41,260
what's happening, like you want me
to fund John, who's never built

1263
00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:44,100
anything ever before in his life
to do his first project.

1264
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:46,720
And so that's where I think we can
play a huge role because it's

1265
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:46,900
like...

1266
00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:47,420
No, don't worry.

1267
00:40:47,420 --> 00:40:49,180
John's not going to be by himself.

1268
00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:50,220
He's powered by middle.

1269
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:52,620
So he'll have, you know, the full
resources and power of our team

1270
00:40:52,620 --> 00:40:54,300
behind him to make sure he
actually gets through the project.

1271
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:54,480
Yeah.

1272
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,520
What was interesting to me when we

1273
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,800
first started speaking, it was
like, yeah, like middle housing,

1274
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:58,410
you're focused on infill.

1275
00:40:58,410 --> 00:41:00,230
Like that was what I thought, you

1276
00:41:00,230 --> 00:41:01,030
know, the company was.

1277
00:41:01,030 --> 00:41:02,490
But, you know, after the

1278
00:41:02,490 --> 00:41:05,490
presentation and speaking to you
afterwards, finding out that, you

1279
00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:06,650
know, you guys were supported.

1280
00:41:06,650 --> 00:41:08,130
financially by federal grants is

1281
00:41:08,130 --> 00:41:10,590
how you're making it so affordable
and accessible to people.

1282
00:41:10,590 --> 00:41:14,050
To me, it's not like, oh, you guys
have built a company to help with

1283
00:41:14,050 --> 00:41:14,610
middle housing.

1284
00:41:14,610 --> 00:41:16,410
It's you've built a company to

1285
00:41:16,410 --> 00:41:18,530
help that middle education, middle
consulting piece, right?

1286
00:41:18,530 --> 00:41:21,090
It's a huge endeavor and it's
pretty scary for people to go in

1287
00:41:21,090 --> 00:41:24,350
and tear down a house and try and
build a fourplex.

1288
00:41:24,350 --> 00:41:25,590
But if you're able to consult...

1289
00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:27,550
on a like small fee because the

1290
00:41:27,550 --> 00:41:30,110
government is encouraging you guys
and supporting you guys to help

1291
00:41:30,110 --> 00:41:30,630
with that.

1292
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:32,590
It's like, go with the flow,

1293
00:41:32,590 --> 00:41:34,390
right?
Go with the government policy of

1294
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:36,190
if this is what they're
supporting, it's obviously what

1295
00:41:36,430 --> 00:41:37,110
they want.

1296
00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:38,350
So, you know, after speaking with

1297
00:41:38,350 --> 00:41:41,630
you for a while, I was like, It's
not an expensive bill because the

1298
00:41:41,630 --> 00:41:42,670
government wants to facilitate
this.

1299
00:41:42,670 --> 00:41:42,950
Right.

1300
00:41:43,050 --> 00:41:44,890
So, yeah, I appreciate what you

1301
00:41:44,890 --> 00:41:46,750
guys are doing in that space.

1302
00:41:46,750 --> 00:41:48,750
Yeah, no. And I mean, like I'm an

1303
00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:51,290
entrepreneur and I understand
we're not a nonprofit and we're

1304
00:41:51,290 --> 00:41:53,030
building, you know, different
tools that we're able to be

1305
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:53,570
profitable on.

1306
00:41:53,570 --> 00:41:55,270
But I think none of it matters.

1307
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:58,420
Like when you think about the
funnel, it's not going to matter

1308
00:41:58,420 --> 00:42:00,760
if people don't feel like they
have the foundations of education

1309
00:42:01,020 --> 00:42:04,060
and understanding of what it takes
to move through it.

1310
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:05,440
So we could build every suite of
tool.

1311
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,300
We could build a fund.

1312
00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:08,720
We could be a development manager.

1313
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:10,280
You could do a bunch.

1314
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,060
of different things but none of

1315
00:42:12,060 --> 00:42:15,860
that matters if people just don't
know what they don't know and so i

1316
00:42:15,860 --> 00:42:19,320
think like What we went to the
government for when we worked with

1317
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,560
the housing supply challenge was,
you know, they wanted to see

1318
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,020
actual movement and housing
starts.

1319
00:42:22,020 --> 00:42:24,040
And we said, that's really tough
to do if we don't understand what

1320
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,200
the knowledge policy barrier gaps
are.

1321
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,060
And so we kind of identified what
we thought those gaps were and

1322
00:42:28,060 --> 00:42:29,380
started to provide solutions for
those gaps.

1323
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:31,680
And so, like I said, we think
we're finding the right

1324
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:31,940
ingredients.

1325
00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:33,280
It's unique depending on the

1326
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,240
municipality and the framework in
which you're working with.

1327
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:37,640
working with Regina and Saskatoon,
and we've had conversations with

1328
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,860
even smaller municipalities,
Airdrie, Red Deer, Lethbridge,

1329
00:42:39,860 --> 00:42:43,940
very, very small places that are
also very keen to figure out what

1330
00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:46,360
it can look like for them to get
more of this housing form built.

1331
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,200
So I would just say, Taylor, we've
landed on the fact that there's

1332
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:49,940
consensus that this housing form
matters.

1333
00:42:49,940 --> 00:42:52,580
It can be incredibly beneficial to
communities and cities all across

1334
00:42:52,580 --> 00:42:53,510
the country.

1335
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:55,910
How do we prepare them with the

1336
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:59,410
right tool sets, education, and
foundation to deliver on those?

1337
00:42:59,410 --> 00:42:59,690
things.

1338
00:42:59,690 --> 00:43:01,650
And we were lucky enough to be a

1339
00:43:01,650 --> 00:43:04,470
part of the housing supply
challenges, which you're talking

1340
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:07,330
about with the federal government,
where we are one of four finalists

1341
00:43:07,330 --> 00:43:08,230
across the country.

1342
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:11,310
There was 260 applications and we

1343
00:43:11,310 --> 00:43:15,670
advanced as a finalist through the
year in a competition, which made

1344
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:19,330
a huge difference and kind of gave
us that boost to be able to keep

1345
00:43:19,980 --> 00:43:20,260
going.

1346
00:43:20,260 --> 00:43:21,820
The cool part about it is we're

1347
00:43:21,820 --> 00:43:24,220
seeing people come out the other
end now, right?

1348
00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:27,140
Like that are developing, that are
on their journey, that are doing

1349
00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:27,540
it.

1350
00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:30,440
And I think the other thing about

1351
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,640
us that's been really interesting
is like whatever you need in order

1352
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,660
to actually deliver is what we
want to give you.

1353
00:43:36,660 --> 00:43:39,660
I know there's people on our
community page that like are

1354
00:43:39,660 --> 00:43:41,060
lurking, that are active members
that are watching.

1355
00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:44,780
And I'll see them two months down
the road and they'll say, man, I'm

1356
00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:47,410
so glad that guy posted that
message because I had no idea that

1357
00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:48,630
they were doing that.

1358
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:50,650
And I basically went back to my

1359
00:43:50,890 --> 00:43:52,790
project and refined it and changed
this.

1360
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:53,730
And it's like, perfect.

1361
00:43:53,730 --> 00:43:54,190
Like that's exactly.

1362
00:43:54,190 --> 00:43:58,370
Well, what we want to do is we
want to be a resource for where

1363
00:43:58,370 --> 00:44:01,810
you are at your journey and make
sure if that's interfacing with us

1364
00:44:01,810 --> 00:44:04,730
on our socials, on our digitals,
coming to the courses, coming to

1365
00:44:04,730 --> 00:44:06,250
the networking programs that we're
throwing.

1366
00:44:06,370 --> 00:44:07,950
That's what we're trying to do.

1367
00:44:07,950 --> 00:44:08,050
Yeah.

1368
00:44:08,050 --> 00:44:10,710
Maybe we'll finish off with that.

1369
00:44:10,850 --> 00:44:12,960
With the last question is when's

1370
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,320
the next event in Kelowna?
Yeah.

1371
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:15,540
Yeah.

1372
00:44:15,540 --> 00:44:18,680
So we don't have a date yet booked

1373
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:19,740
for the Kelowna region at the
moment.

1374
00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:22,860
I would say like we're working on
with the city right now on the

1375
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:26,900
second phase, I guess would be
like the third phase of their fast

1376
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:27,020
track.

1377
00:44:27,020 --> 00:44:30,520
So I think as that the new plans.

1378
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,720
launch and give a bit of diversity
because i know there was some

1379
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:36,640
feedback on the first set of plans
that launched i think we'll see

1380
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,640
more interest but we have plans to
host middle school through the

1381
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,560
fall and then also in the fall the
launch of middle u which would be

1382
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,240
open to folks all across canada as
i said because it'd be done mostly

1383
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:50,180
online a great opportunity for
folks to kind of get in and learn

1384
00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:53,280
the foundations and then also run
through some use case modeling

1385
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,080
awesome all right well we'll see
you in the fall then definitely

1386
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,740
thank you so much for coming on
and oh that was awesome think all

1387
00:44:59,740 --> 00:45:03,040
right well we'll see you in the
fall then definitely thank you so

1388
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,560
much for coming on and oh that was
awesome You're doing some crazy

1389
00:45:06,660 --> 00:45:06,780
things.

1390
00:45:06,780 --> 00:45:07,480
we'll Yeah.

1391
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,360
I really appreciate you guys
having me on.

1392
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:09,640
me on.

1393
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:10,700
Your vision board must just look

1394
00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:10,940
insane.

1395
00:45:10,940 --> 00:45:11,260
It is.

1396
00:45:11,260 --> 00:45:14,460
And I think like, it's funny
because we talk about that all the

1397
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:14,560
time.

1398
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,300
Like most entrepreneurs don't die

1399
00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:15,660
from starvation.

1400
00:45:15,660 --> 00:45:16,920
They die from like, you know,

1401
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:17,120
indigestion.

1402
00:45:17,260 --> 00:45:18,440
And so we're just like trying to

1403
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,100
be mindful and stay focused on our
niche and what we do well.

1404
00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:24,020
And I think a bit of it is like,
what is the thing that we think is

1405
00:45:24,020 --> 00:45:25,830
going to make the most meaningful
difference?

1406
00:45:25,830 --> 00:45:27,210
And that's what we're after.

1407
00:45:27,210 --> 00:45:28,270
So whatever you're after, you're

1408
00:45:28,270 --> 00:45:30,030
after, keep it up.

1409
00:45:30,030 --> 00:45:31,170
Doing the right things, dude.

1410
00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:32,310
Thanks, man.