105: Everything You Need to Know About Working with a Realtor in BC with Century 21's Dean Desrosiers

0:00 Okay, welcome back to the Real Estate Podcast. I'm your mortgage broker host, Taylor Atkinson. And I'm your real estate agent host, Matt Glenn. What's happening, Taylor? How was your summer? Summer's been awesome, man. Yeah, it's been a ton of fun. I saw you landed the 360 on the wake. Yeah, it's been a long, hard mission of trying to get that. So hard work pays off. How's your summer? How's things going? I haven't landed any 360s, but it's been a pretty awesome summer. Well, yeah, you just finished up a hockey league in the summer and got more going for us in the fall. Yeah, got back into hockey. Well, last year, but then the summer took it real serious. And now in the fall, it's on. Yeah. Our team's going to win. We've kind of taken the last few weeks off, but we've got a bunch of shows lined up this fall, so we'll start to get back into things.

0:42 Yeah, yeah. We've got more good shows coming. Yeah, today's show was awesome. It was nice to kind of get back on the mic and start chatting real estate. Yeah. Talking to Dean Derossier, who is the part owner, associate broker at our brokerage, best brokerage in the interior, Century 21 Assurance Realty. Dean has a ton of insight, ton of experience, kind of cut his teeth in real estate during the 2008 fiasco and got started right when it was times were the toughest. Has worked through that, has been a successful agent since, has moved to a managing broker and brokerage owner. It was awesome talking to him. He's always a ton of fun to talk to. Yeah, I didn't realize how many... people he's trained throughout his career. But yeah, that's kind of the big takeaway, I guess, of, you know, newer agents are looking to pick somebody's brain or just chat about how everything works.

1:22 Yeah. He's got to reach out to. Yeah. So this episode, we really took a focus on like the agent's role, what consumers should expect from agents, how realtor ca works. Kind of just talked like a high level of what agents do and what to expect as a consumer and as an agent, what your duties are to consumers. Super insightful episode. It's funny because it's such a low barrier of entry in terms of the industry to get into. funny because it's such a low barrier of entry in terms of the industry to get into. There's really high expectations from the end consumer. So it's good, right? It kind of makes sure that people are doing what they need to do in terms of real estate transaction side of things. You got to have somebody on your team that can help in the background and stuff like that. Yeah, definitely. And also, he goes into quite a bit of detail on the differences between the jurisdictions.

2:04 Like, BC, we're kind of in a land of our own. Like, we're the only ones that have a lot of these rules. So, like, when people come from Alberta or the U .S. to buy property here, it's not the same, right? There's obviously similarities, but, like, there's also a ton of differences. So, it's good to go over. Yeah, it's a bit of a longer show. So, we'll just dive straight into it. And hopefully, yeah, you guys enjoy it. We'll get some more shows going this fall. get some more shows going this fall. Absolutely. And this episode, like every other episode, sponsored by Century 21 Assurance Realty, best brokerage in the interior of BC. Head office, our main area is in Kelowna, but we are in Vernon, Kamloops, Salmon Arm, Crescent, Kootenays, Castlegar. We're everywhere in the interior and we're growing. So we're the brokerage to be at. If you're an agent looking for a new brokerage or if you're a buyer or seller looking for an agent, Century 21 Assurance Realty is the place to call.

2:48 Enjoy the show. All right, Dean Derossier, welcome back to the pod. Fan favorite. Is this your third or fourth? It's the third, and I don't know if you guys get any fan feedback, but I probably don't want it. We only send you the good stuff. only send you the good stuff. Okay, good. Good, good. Yeah, so you have obviously extensive history in the industry. You were started as an agent in kind of the 2008 -2009 showdown, which is a lot of similarities to now. You were an agent for... A long time. Then you've since became an associate broker partner in our brokerage, the best brokerage in town. If you've been listening to this pod, the best brokerage in the interior. best brokerage in the interior. We're allowed to be biased on that one.

3:29 But, you know, I should say, though, however. The interior has a lot of really good brokers. We're pretty lucky here. And I'm not saying there aren't good brokers in other areas. But, you know, if I sat down at lunch with like five of the top brokerages in town, it would just be a great conversation. And there's a lot of skill level here. So I'm always often humbled by that. So I do want to start out with that sort of caveat. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. I'd agree with that, too. Ours is the best. But yeah. Cool. So today you want to talk about, which I think is a great topic by real estate in BC. guidelines, why realtors are asking what questions, what to keep in mind for agents and consumers, those lines? Yeah, like working with a realtor in BC. with a realtor in BC. It's changed a lot since 2018. And we used to have a brochure prior to your coming in, Matt.

4:09 It was called Working with a Realtor. And it was a real quick summary on what to expect. And back then, I think it was one page. Today, if you did Working with a Realtor, it'd probably be like... 20 pages. There's a lot more. That creates a lot of confusion. At the same time, confusion is not good for clarity and for your overall public image and perception. The more we talk about the changes in a positive way, hopefully consumers can learn and you'll have a better experience with the realtor. I'd agree with that. that. That's a good idea. It does seem like we have a lot of rules, a lot of guidelines, a lot of things to keep in mind. Yeah. Well, if you want to ask me the rules, want to ask me the rules, I think there's like 25, 30 pages. Matt, you're a realtor, so you're now sort of part of the, you know, you've been tarnished a little, right? Because you've been doing real estate quite a while now, right? Yeah.

4:56 You're pretty lucky because you still get to pretend to be a consumer a little bit, although you are licensed at the same regulator as us now. I'm married to a real estate agent, to a real estate agent, so I hear a lot of that. lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one. I'm married to one now, too, and that's decent as well. Yeah. You never realize how hard it was to be married to a realtor, realtor, Dean? I've always known I'm a very difficult person to learn with. Can I get that? I'm okay. Now you've just figured out why. Now I realize that working in real estate wasn't helping me, right? So I wasn't doing any favors. But I'm very lucky. I have a very patient wife. And you know, when we look at real estate as a profession... As an independent contractor, when I started back in 2008, they had this thing called real estate life, or it was a focus on the quality of life that real estate agents had, because it's a very different way of living.

5:37 And I think that we sometimes forget that, you know, yes, it looks very exciting on social media and on TV and all these shows that have come out. But the reality is a lot of sleepless nights. It's a lot of late evenings, not seeing your family, being away from your kids, controlling your life as a realtor. You really have to work hard at that. And some agents never get there. You know, it's a balancing life. versus work thing, because I don't know about you, Matt, but I just like, man, if you called me up today and said, let's go look at a house, I want you to write an offer. I would leave you guys right now. That would be so exciting to me because I like that part of it, like that part of it, right? Yeah, definitely. It is like that. So yeah, just kind of drop it and go. And you got to strike where the iron's hot. Like if you have a listing and somebody gives you an offer, you can't. tell the buyer like, listen, can you just wait till tomorrow? Cause like, I really want to enjoy this dinner.

6:20 Like the seller has their biggest possession they probably will ever have until their next house. And like, they need you to be on it. So they, it's a big commitment, right? So, and you have to be rested and you have to be, that part of it, right? Yeah, you have to be rested and you have to be, you know, ready to go. Your mindset has to be in the right place. And there's a broker that owns a brokerage and I've been involved in leadership for a while. when we see problems in real estate sometimes it comes down to the realtors are fatigued they're tired you know they're kind of cranky and you know sometimes it can take one thing and then people are you know maybe going at each other when they shouldn't and so yeah managing your lifestyle is an important thing. So hopefully by the end of this podcast, I think, you know, consumers, realtors are listening are going to say, oh, OK, I didn't know that. Or that's a great way of looking at things. And, you know, I wanted to start out with talking about, you know, how everything's licensed and all that, like start at the high level and then work down a bit.

7:04 All right. First question. How is real estate organized in B .C. and why is it important to consumers? I jokingly say that realtors are agents of capitalism, right? Like we are agents of capitalism. You know, Canada is kind of a social democratic kind of, you know, constitutional monarchy kind of country. But with British common law, property ownership is a huge component of that, right? And it's capital. And so the ability to own land is super important. And if you think of Canada and the U .S. and a lot of countries where people have come to from different countries, everybody wants to own real estate. It's also controlled, right? So the controls we have are the British Columbia Financial Services Authority, which is the regulator in BC. But we also have sort of the association, which is the British Columbia Real Estate Association. And then we have CREA, which is the Canadian Real Estate Association. So there's a big difference between BCFSA and BCREA. You know, it's not that important that consumer knows it. But for example, in Canada, you need to have a license to sell real estate.

7:47 In British Columbia, we call it trading services. And so that's important because RESA, which is the Real Estate Services Act, is kind of what governs licensees. And it tries to govern everything we do with very broad terminology, right? So you couldn't write a real estate act that says this is what you need to do in social media, right? It'll say something about advertising and misleading the public and things like that. But it's a very good set of rules. It's based on British common law generally. And it governs the way the licensees have to conduct themselves. And that was changed in 2018. If you're from Alberta or you're from any other part of Canada or the world for that matter, but primarily North America, where real estate is very similar in terms of its structure, a licensee would hold their license at a brokerage.

8:28 And so if you go down to California and you meet a licensee, you see their advertising on their MLS and you call them up, they need to meet a brokerage. So that's the one common denominator. But after that, British Columbia is 100 % unique compared to every other jurisdiction in the country. Aren't we the only one where you're not allowed to double end in North America? Right. So double end is kind of that misconception word. You can double end anything, but you can't represent. two parties in the same transaction. So that's called dual agency or in what many people call limited dual agency. So back in the day, in the early 2000s, it was very common for buyers to want their own representative. So it kind of made sense, right? But at the time, realtors kind of all worked for sellers because we put their listing on the MLS system.

9:09 It was called MLS .ca. And so the legal workings of that were quite different. And today, the legal workings are if you work with a buyer, that buyer has an agency relationship with you. And if you're working with a seller, that seller has an agency relationship with you. And only in very, very special circumstances in very remote areas of the province could the agent potentially represent both parties. And so, yeah, dual agency in BC was banned in 2018. And this is very different. So, for example, if you sell your house in Alberta or you sell your house anywhere else, you know, it's really common. The realtor calls you up and says, hey, I have an offer. You know, we had an open house on the weekend. Client came in. We wrote an offer. That agent can bring you an offer. And they'll probably have you sign a limited dual agency form.

9:50 And it's highly likely that your listing agent wrote the offer for the buyer. And you do the transaction and everything seems great. British Columbia, that's just really not possible anymore. It could happen, right? There is a provision in the rules for that to happen. But since 2018, it's super rare to see that. So what would happen is now there's a mechanism by which that listing agent needs to sort of either refer or direct the buyer to their own representative. And that's quite different. When I sold my house in Ontario back in 2003, when I left, because I wasn't a real estate agent then, and I didn't realize that it would be a conflict of interest for the realtor to not only represent the buyer and also the seller in the same transaction. But I can tell you like when the transaction was over, I didn't feel great about it, but I didn't really know why I didn't feel great about it actually until I became a real estate agent in 2008.

10:34 And then looking back on it, I was kind of like, oh man. You know, I was happy. I sold my house. Everything was great. But I was kind of left with a feeling like I could have got more money. I could have got better terms. You know, there are little things about the transaction that kind of bugged me. So I think the changes from 2018, you know, sort of banning dual agency, I think have been very good for consumers. And I think it's a good change. Being the only jurisdiction in North America that does it, however, does put a burden on real estate agents, licensees, I should say. to kind of explain what's different here. So that's kind of a long winded explanation. But that's through BCFSA, the regulator for the province. And the other flip side of that is BCREA and CREA, there are associations. So Matt and I are members of that association.

11:15 And we have a set of rules we have to follow there, which are different from the regulator's rules. You know, they're sort of coherent, you know, they fit together, but they're different. And it allows Matt. and I to put a property on realtor .ca. It allows us to have a lockbox, a key. It allows us to have access to software and technologies. It allows us to represent our seller and our buyer with sort of the latest tools in a sense, right? And then after that, we're at a brokerage, which is another level. For us, we're at Century 21. So we're at a brand. But that brokerage level is kind of that supervisory role that the broker has, the managing broker over Matt and I. Like I'm not the managing broker. I own part of the brokerage, but I don't manage it. I do report to our managing broker and I get voted down a lot. So when she watches this, we're both getting whipped.

11:57 Yeah, I think we're in trouble already. So there's lots of layers in real estate, which is interesting. It doesn't really matter that much to consumers. But what does matter is that they know who they're working with. And I think that's the great part about British Columbia in the last, you know, since 2018. And it takes a collective effort to do that because not only are we explaining to them something that's completely new. it's completely different than probably where they came from. You know, like 30, 40 % of the buyers could be from out of province. And now we're, you know, we're really fighting against their previous history that they would have had in a transaction. So it's been really interesting. I'm really proud of the profession. I think we've done great. I still think there's lots of room to move on this to do better. But I think real estate in BC, from that perspective, is very good.

12:38 buyer has their agent, a seller has their agent. I think that's a great start to a real estate transaction. I guess kind of wearing like the consumer hat in this three -way conversation here is like, guess kind of wearing like the consumer hat in this three -way conversation here is like, you do get people with a bit of a misconception of saying, well, if I'm not represented, maybe I can negotiate better because they're not going to have to pay commission to the buying agent, right? Like it doesn't cost you anything as the buyer to use an agent, but I guess, yeah, where do you guys come into play there and say, well, like here are the benefits, like the small chance that you may get a discount is. it mostly well you guys don't know the comparables in the area you're not going to have like you know insurance if something goes sideways like what are kind of the main takeaways there the entire conversation with a realtor actually starts with a disclosure form and it's called the disclosure of representation and trading services form we call it the dorts a lot of people you'll see oh you have to sign the dorts that form is kind of this consumer forward form so every time a realtor has an interaction with a consumer entire conversation with a realtor actually starts with a disclosure form and it's called the disclosure of representation and trading services form we call it the dorts a lot of people you'll see oh you have to sign the dorts that form is kind of this consumer forward form so every time a realtor has an interaction with a consumer Right.

13:43 This form is to be shown to them when the consumer wants to talk more deeply about real estate. So this is probably the most confusing part of the new rules. It's like, when do I pull out the disclosure? Because you start pulling out disclosures and you're having a conversation, someone about real estate, the consumer is going to look at you or, you know, you're in an open house. They start to back up quite a bit. Right. It's like, hey, wait a minute. I just want to see what color the carpet is downstairs. Like buy me some drinks first. Yeah. Yeah. I want drinks and cookies like you've got bread in the oven, you know, and the kids want to go jump in the pool in the back. And, you know. An open house can be a pretty crazy thing. And when somebody walks in the open house, what's the first thing they do? Hi, how you doing? My name's so -and -so. Oh, where are you from? Oh, I'm from so -and -so. What brings you here today? Oh, my wife and I need to buy a house because we're homeless if we don't get something in the next two months. And suddenly, now you're into personal information. So an open house is a fun place to meet people. But it's also, with the rules in British Columbia, the licensee has to handle it in a certain way.

14:24 Because if I'm at the open house and I'm the listing agent, one of the rules of agency is full disclosure to my client. And so if somebody comes into my open house and says that, you know, I'm going to be homeless if I don't buy a house in two months and I can afford your house, why now do you need to share that with my seller? Because that's 100 % disclosure. And interestingly, that buyer may not know that I'm going to be disclosing that to the seller. So there's always this kind of awkward point where I would have to say, hey, wait a minute, before you tell me too much, just so you know, this is my role today at the open house. I work for the seller. Or in many situations, Maybe the open house is being done by someone else at your brokerage and they don't represent the seller. And in that situation, it's probably a lot less consumer protection oriented, right? We're trying to create informed consent. So there's this funny little point where how much personal information is too much, you know, and I think that's always for me been a challenging one. So I generally say to people, have this disclosure form right away and have it there.

15:07 For example, in British Columbia, if you're my client, I give you 100 % loyalty. I give you 100 % full disclosure about any facts or any information about the property throughout our relationship. I have a duty to avoid any conflicts of interest, right? And a conflict of interest could be limited dual agency, right? What if my best friend wants to buy your house after I list it? That's probably a conflict of interest, right? And what does that look like? Or what I tell people, hey, you might not think my best friend's a big deal, but what if my mom wanted to buy your house, right? There's a conflict of interest for sure. And how do we handle those? And the last one for the agency relationship, which called the client relationship is 100 % confidentiality, right? So if you look at each one of those points, those are things that are now sacred as a client relationship. And what I found in 2008, when I started. Those things weren't generally sacred in the industry.

15:48 We would always hear somebody talk about somebody buying and selling real estate personally that they knew. And we heard their personal story when maybe we shouldn't have, right? Do consumers know what loyalty means? Like, what does it mean to be loyal in a real estate transaction? You know, what does full disclosure mean? So all these things have a lot of nuances to them. So the opposite of that. which consumers need to know is that if they're standing in the open house and they start divulging a lot of their personal information, their financing, their stress and all the things they have to kind of accomplish, they're probably putting themselves in a weakened position if they do write an offer. And so, you know, it's kind of the real estate licensee, the realtor's job to inform the consumer so the consumer can share things based on informed consent. Right. So there's a balance there.

16:28 So. All right. And how does Realtor ca work? Oh, Realtor ca is very interesting. Canada started with MLS .ca. So when I started, it was MLS .ca. We could put seven photos on the system, but there was a lot of data. So we were putting sales data in there. You could search sales for back to like the 90s at the time in 2008 when I started. So Realtor ca came about from MLS .ca. It was a branding change. And I think primarily they did it because CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association, which we mentioned earlier, as our association, they own the name Realtor. And I love that because if you ever watch Santa Clara Rita Diet with who's the actress that does that one, she talks a real tour. It's real tour. We have to say it the right way. Yeah. Meganrealtor ca, I think, was good for Canada because in Canada, we have one Realtor .ca.

17:09 In the U S., there is over, I mean, I'm sure they've consolidated, but the last time I saw a presentation on the U .S. MLS system, there was over 500 MLS systems in the U .S. A city will have like a bunch of different MLS systems, a bunch of different MLS systems, which is kind of hard to think about being from here. Yeah, if you want to buy a house in Seattle, you know, you go to MLS com, you're not really sure you're seeing everything. But if you go to realtor ca, and you start searching in Vancouver, you're going to see every single listing there. That's a powerful thing that the realtor ca does. So number one, realtor ca is probably in the world, the number one focus for consumers who want to purchase real estate in Canada. So like we know consumer wise, you know, 85 % or more of the consumers start their search on realtor ca in Canada.

17:52 And it's completely opposite experience in the US. Now, do you guys have like a professional login for that? So it opens up more information? Yeah, we get to see the back end. We call it the back end, right? And there's interfaces and programs. And so, yeah, you know, we have access to the sold data, statistical data on every aspect of a real estate transaction that's in the system. The search capabilities are quite a bit more extensive than what you can do as a consumer on realtor .ca. And it's not done that way because we don't want consumers to search. I think this is the challenge we have. It's just that in Canada, we have a lot of real estate boards that send the data up to realtor .ca. And over the years, every board has a slightly different data feed, right?

18:35 So, you know, in Mississauga, I might search for a two bedroom plus den house. Well, in our board, we don't mark off dens, so you can't search a den. The Realtor ca system is a very good search. It's very good geographic as well. And the app is absolutely wonderful. And so recently, Realtor ca became a private entity owned by Korea. So it's owned by Realtor. So we own it. And that'll give us a little bit more flexibility to put more money into Realtor ca to sort of expand. the consumer search capabilities of that system. In the U S., they don't have that restriction in their companies, but we do in Canada being a... Not -for -profit CREA and our associations are not -for -profits. We can't really bring on a ton of advertising and we can't sell services as part of Realtor .ca. So now we can.

19:15 So I'm excited to see what's going to happen in the next few years. We're very fortunate to have Realtor ca in Canada. You mentioned, mentioned, you know, it started out, MLS ca or whatever it was, started out with like seven photos. Now, what are you guys up to like 60 you can go to or something? No, I think it's 100. It's 100 now. Yeah, I blame Century 21 Assurance in Kelowna because I think it was 2009 or something. And I want to pay homage to him because he's just a great guy going through a tough time now. But Terry Peters was a photographer at our brokerage at the time. And I was looking online. I was at a different brokerage. And the next thing you know, I see 21 high definition photos and all the listings at Century 21. And I went, oh, man, that looks way better. Back when that was not a normal thing.

19:57 Now it's crazy if you don't. I mean, no one did it back then. And their listings look so good. I mean, I had to buy a DSLR camera. You know, I'm pretty good with electronics, but my photos never were half as good as Terry's. I mean, since it's evolving, do you think you'll get to the point of like, you just meet your clients and say, here's like a set of virtual 3D goggles. And then they just sit at home and like walk through homes. I would say no. I don't think that's... Yeah. I mean, one of the myths I hear all the time, and my wife and I even said this when we bought our house in Ontario, because we had a real estate agent in Ontario help us look for a house. And even here in Kelowna, my wife one day, we're talking to friends and she says, well, you know what? I don't know what our realtor really does because you know what? We found our house.

20:41 We found our own house. We found it ourselves. Where did she find it? Well, she found it on realtor .ca. And at the time the realtor had shown us, you know, about six or seven houses. We've been out with them twice. But the advice he was giving us about the knowledge in the area was the reason why we found that house. Yeah, we knew the area and everything else. But by the time we looked at eight houses, we knew what we didn't want. We knew what we kind of wanted. As a consumer, you look at these houses and they all look amazing. But until you actually step foot inside of them, you really don't get a sense of what they are. I really don't get a sense of what they are. And so after even looking at eight houses, you know, we were all ready to pick our own house. I always remember that comment because, you know, you hear that a lot. Oh, I don't need a realtor. I found my own house. Well. You know, it was the advice piece for us in those early days because we were new to Ontario and we were new to Kelowna.

21:26 You think that had something to do with like the old mentality when the MLS was literally just like a book? had something to do with like the old mentality when the MLS was literally just like a book? Yeah. That would make more sense for a realtor to find your house. But now, like, when I'm looking for houses, I also use Realtor .ca. Like, I use obviously our MLS system too, but like, man, Realtor ca is a better program. Like, that thing's just awesome. To your point, Matt, if we look at the 3D walkthroughs, which really started around 2018 prior to COVID, right? I remember when we decided to have all of our listings at the brokerage, we're going to have a Matterport 3D. That was pretty significant as well, because there's a lot of programming that goes into that. It extends the photo shoot from an hour to about two and a half hours. There's a lot of uploading and programming time. But now you can walk through the house virtually in a sense. And what's interesting about that is as a marketing guy, I looked at that as showing avoidance.

22:07 So what that does is that creates showing avoidance for your listing because consumers walk through it and they think they know the house. But when you actually walk through the house, it feels different when you're in person versus the virtual. So in my gut, I know that the virtual tours are super cool and they're really helpful, but they may harm some consumers, in my opinion, because some houses just feel really cool, like the construction and the build quality and the surfaces and the colors, because you never really get the exact views and stuff like that. It's hard to see. photos, right? What does it feel like when you're sitting at the kitchen table looking at the window? You'll see that in the Matterport in the 3D. I should just say 3D, but you don't get the feeling for it. It's amazing because through COVID, that was one of those things where the board, we had to make the decision. If the listing can't be shown, it can't be on realtor .ca. That's one of our rules. So when you list on realtor ca, you have to agree that your property can be viewed for sale unless it's new construction, unless it's a lot, for example, or there's a real extenuating circumstance. So in COVID, all the listings that had 3D Matterports were considered available to show.

22:48 And it allowed us to keep them up. And we were encouraging agents who hadn't done that to do it so that we could maintain the system, the integrity of Realtor .ca. So it was kind of a funny nuance. You said something funny there too, that like the walkthrough, people don't want to see the house. So I know of agents that they put on limited photos, like one or... 10 photos just so the consumer can't see. So they have to book a showing so it turns into like a lead generation situation for them. So having worse photos is actually better for the agent. which is super weird. Yeah. And I think the jury's out whether that's bad for the consumer or not. You know, like if somebody calls you and looks at the property and with all its warts and things, maybe less photos for some properties is the right strategy.

23:30 Right. So, you know, when I first started, I already got mad. I see one photo and I was like, oh, come on, where are all the photos? You call him to bitch about it. And he's like, you called me, didn't you? Yeah, you called me and you booked a showing, you know, and the first thing you do is when you get there is you start talking about the possibilities. You know, first thing you do is when you get there is you start talking about the possibilities. Right. Whereas if you look at it online, the first thing you know is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting one. So lots of photos is really good. And one photo could be really good. It's interesting how real estate can be a yin and yang that way. So it's super counterintuitive, but it does make sense when you think about it. does make sense when you think about it.

24:10 So kind of funny. Yeah. So Dean, what's the difference between a realtor, a licensee, a salesperson, all those different titles that we hear? Yeah, that's a great question. As a licensee, your license is held at the regulator BCFSA. So you've passed a test and you've taken a course and you're licensed at a brokerage. So as consumers are going to interact with real estate, they're going to maybe go to an open house. They're going to call on a listing on realtor .ca. There's a 95%, 99 % chance they're going to communicate with a licensee. The licensee should be identifying who their principal client is. So, hey, thanks for calling. Just so you know, I work for the seller. What questions you have about my listing today, right? And that kind of roll it out. However, if you go into a show home, for example, a new construction, or you go to a development.

24:50 Some of those agents, and in fact, most of them are not licensees. They're representatives of the developer. So in British Columbia, we have two sets of rules. We have one rule for Real Estate Services Act and the other rule is called REDMA, which is the Real Estate Development Marketing Act. And so that allows builders and developers to have their show home. It allows them to escort people through their different properties. It allows them to purchase a property pre -sale. But there is a caveat because sometimes developers and builders would hire a licensee to conduct that business for them. So sometimes you might run into a licensee in that situation. And so then the rules of dual agency and disclosure all apply. The Redma has a set of rules and disclosure. But the biggest thing most people know is that if you buy a presale or you buy from a developer, you generally have an automatic seven -day right of rescission. If that's in the contract, you kind of know you're probably dealing with, you know, some that might not be licensed. They probably are an employee of the developer. And that's super common. And many employees of developers and builders were ex -real estate agents in the past, for example.

25:33 They have a lot of experience. So that's kind of the two roles now. So as a consumer, when are you interacting with someone? If it's a licensee, they're most likely going to tell you right away their particular role. You know, I'm licensed at this. brokerage, this is who I represent. The other thing that happens, which is quite interesting, is we're going to ask you if you're working with a realtor or not. And we'll do it on email, we'll do it on the telephone, we'll do it on text. And that will happen all the time. And as a consumer, you might get annoyed by that. What would be the benefit of working with a realtor on a presale? a presale? And that's probably one of the other myths, right? Like the developer will say, well, you don't need a realtor, we can help you with it. Well, the challenge with that is the presale contract is written by the developer, often their lawyer.

26:16 It 100 % benefits the developer and the lawyer. And there's a lot of paperwork in there that's necessary in order for Taylor to actually finance it, because the contract's quite complex, right? Because it hasn't been built yet, or there's going to be moving closing dates, and there's going to be contingencies and holdbacks and lots of things. So it's quite a complex contract. A realtor, a licensee... can add a lot of value in that process because we can think clearly while you get excited about the house, right? You know, you kind of get rose colored glasses and we can help you sort of look at the layout. We can help you choose not so much the colors, but we can help you look at the contract to make sure that it's going to meet your needs because it's one sided contract.

26:56 A lot of times you see clauses in there that the developer and the builder may not care too much about it, but it might put. your client in a bit of a bind financing wise and things like that. So there's a lot of ways that a licensee can help in that situation. Some builders are really good. You know, they want the licensee there. Some of them are a little bit more prickly about it. But I would say I personally wouldn't buy a new development in a city other than Kelowna unless I hired a local real estate agent personally. And I'm a real estate agent. So I know the value of seeing it from having done it myself. It's a little bit more nuanced, though. So we don't write the contract. But we help you review. Also, we can do things like CMA, introduce you to people like inspectors. and appraisers and lawyers. Oh yeah. The biggest one is the walkthrough.

27:36 Like, you know, what do you do in a walkthrough? Who's qualified to do a walkthrough? Like, I don't know about you, but I built a couple of houses, but I'm still overwhelmed in a walkthrough because I'm looking at lots of stuff. And, you know, as a consumer, you do have the right to have a representative there with you and a real staging can help you. And if it's quite complex, you know, the realtor might recommend that you hire a, like a home inspector as well. Somebody to go with you because new construction out very expensive. Builders are amazing. The quality homes are really good, but. I mean, it's always good to have a second set of eyes, look at everything. Yeah, 100%. As a consumer, Dean, should we just call the listing agent or should we call our realtor first? Or what do you think on that? As a broker, I have two answers. One, as a real estate agent, I'd be like, yeah, call me.

28:16 I'll answer any question you have, right? So if you call the listing agent, the listing agent is allowed to give you factual information about the property. If you call the listing agent and say, hey, What's going on with the seller? I noticed you dropped the price. Are they desperate to sell? Well, then the listing agent is prohibited from telling you that. So if your intention of calling the listing agent is you're looking for some secret weapon that you can use to benefit yourself, you know, it's probably not a great call. But if you intend to go into a transaction mode where you're thinking of screening this property and comparing it to others. I would hope that by that time you'd hired a buyer's agent to help you professionally, you know, tackle this in a professional way. But you can certainly call the listing agent anytime you like. The listing agent would encourage you. But the listing agent also would have to be quite honest with you that if you wanted to write the offer, that that agent wouldn't be able to help you do it.

28:58 And I think that in and of itself sort of says to me, well, you know, it'd be great then. Why don't you have your own representative? But we hear a lot that the consumer says, oh, I don't want to bother my agent. You know, I thought I would call a listing agent and really a buyer's agent that's bothered because their client calls. I don't know any of them that are like that. They want you to call them. you to call them. As a listing agent, I have quite a few listings going. I get those calls all the time. I also get calls from other listing agents where my clients have called them and said they don't want to bother me. And I love getting those calls. And I don't know any agents that wouldn't want to get a call. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, part of this is consumer service, right? So we look at what's customer service. I think the primary duty of a listing agent is to sell the listing. So if a consumer calls me and they understand that I work for the seller, then I'm going to give them customer service and, you know, try to sell the listing, do the best I can.

29:45 I also know that if the person on the phone starts divulging a lot of personal information, I'd kind of have to be a little bit careful. I actually hope that they have an agent that they're working with because in that way, you know, I can extend the conversation further and I can do more follow up. Right. And I think that's probably what consumers don't understand. Like a lot of times we want the buyer to be working with another agent so we can be maybe a bit more aggressive with our sales pitch and, you know, and push them a little bit more because to see how serious they are, because really as a listing agent, I mean, we don't get paid until the house sells. Right. So, you know, we're not sitting back just waiting for the phone to ring. I mean, if somebody calls us, we're going to grill them. But it's great when they have an agent because then we can grill them even more afterwards. Can we maybe take a step back and figure out like if I'm new?

30:25 a step back and figure out like if I'm new? to Kelowna and I want to buy a home or if I've lived in my home for 30 years and my last agent's well -retired, where do you guys start to find an agent? Do you feel most consumers just Google it, ask a friend, like where do we start to find an agent? So Taylor, what I do is I listen to my favorite podcast in Kelowna and I call that guy. Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of research on this through Korea and Realtor .ca. 67%, generally speaking, which we all know is two thirds, right? It's kind of a standard deviation number, generally ask for a referral from someone. So, you know, most consumers ask a trusted friend who they might know. And that's how a lot of the introductions come from. And it really surprises people that, you know, if you see a billboard and you see a lot of advertising and see social media, that's generally not where people go. There's a large number of people who, pick the local expert. So they look in the area and if they see an agent with a lot of signs, I think that's about 10, 12 % do that.

31:07 There is a portion that meet people kind of randomly like open houses and things like that. So it's kind of an interesting balance of it, but that large portion of people generally go based on referral. I've audited my own business quite a bit. And I think it follows almost exactly these lines is that two thirds are people that I just know and like you have a good relationship with. This is why it's so important for an agent to be social, have like a social life and lots of friends. But also when your social life, you're not just the guy that's having 17 beers and like you have to be a little bit professional, even in your personal life, you know, so that people want to trust you to buy the house. So I find that's a thing. But then also listings, like your listings, you get the call. So if you're the local expert, if they just see your signs everywhere, you get calls like that. I would agree with that by your math. That's like 80 % of. Yeah, there's probably five to eight percent that are sort of like a marketing driven kind of things, like if you're advertising or they're going to click on an ad and they get there eventually.

31:53 And often, you know, what's interesting about our profession is, you know, when we look at inquiries from realtor ca, a very low proportion of them get answered. So, you know, as a profession, as a broker. That's true. Statistically, there's a lot of data that shows inquiries from realtor ca are not answered very promptly sometimes. And so it's shocking to me because everyone that I know who are often full -time realtors working really hard, I don't see that. But statistically, nationally, they see a lot of these inquiries not being responded to. And I think that's a missed opportunity for the profession. But I also think that everybody comes into the profession at their own level, right? There's a lot of agents that maybe aren't full -time. There's a lot that are full -time. Your phone could be ringing all the time. You wake up that night. next morning and you see a couple of emails and, you know, by two or three o 'clock in the afternoon, maybe you didn't answer those. That couldn't just happen.

32:34 That's part of life. There's no way I can tell you in the 13 years that I was a salesperson that I got back to everybody in 30 minutes. That's just impossible. Yeah. If you're with your client, know, you're like, sorry, I got to. Talk to this other client. That's not the greatest look. In BC, so going on the sales side of things, if you're selling your home, is there just a standard commission everywhere? I know geographically it changes a little bit with the big brokerages, right? But then you have some of these low commission split brokerages. I guess what's the difference there? This is one of those conversations that if you have 100 realtors in a room and you want to talk about commission, 99 of them will run out of the room because we're not allowed to talk about commission. But commission is a super important topic for consumers. And I think that, you know, how we learn to talk about money as a real estate agent is generally how we develop as a person.

33:19 When I started in real estate, I wasn't very good at talking about people's finances, but I got really good quickly because we were negotiating for millions of dollars. I think that's a very important point because like when I started as an agent, you're like, ah, you know, like I probably shouldn't know this, but now it's like, I need to know. Like, you don't need to tell me all the details, but like if you have a $900 ,000 mortgage and you want to sell your house for $900 ,000, but it's only worth $800 ,000, like I need to know that. So I feel like in my own business, I have become a little bit more proddy with that. You have to remember that you're the professional, right? So you have to know what you're doing here. Not everyone comes like that, but a lot of them do. Obviously, I lean a lot on a lawyer's broker like Taylor to kind of tell me what's up. But I have to know the broad strokes myself for sure. And if we go back to where we started, if you look at the disclosure of representation in trading services form.

34:03 If you're my client, I owe you 100 % confidentiality, right? So as a real estate professional today, we're a lot like a lawyer. We're a lot like a doctor. And I think that if we emphasize that with clients, they should know that their private information is protected. And even if they fire me or they stop using you and they work with someone else, the confidentiality stays forever. So I had a lot of experiences early on where I saw other agents divulging people's personal information. And it would maybe feel really uncomfortable because I came from the medical profession, which... confidentiality is super important. And I think that, yeah, when we talk about these things, consumers need to know that they have a lot of protections when they hire an agent that represents them as a client. And I think confidentiality is a huge, huge, not only comfort, but it's a professionalism statement that they can divulge personal things to us. We can serve them better when we know everything. They should have the confidence that it's just, it dies with us, right? It's not our story to tell.

34:46 It's theirs in a sense, right? Absolutely. I agree with that 100%. So yeah, commissions aren't set anywhere. However, there's no... thing is a standard commission. Commissions are always negotiable too. For example, if you agree to sign an MLS contract and pay a certain amount, when the offer comes in, the commissions are still negotiable. Right. Like they're always negotiable. We need to have a preset agreement, of course, because that's kind of a promise. When I look at the MLS contract, which is the realtor ca contract, to me, it's kind of promised to market because no one gets paid unless you accept an offer. So there's kind of a disconnect there. And if you're not happy with the commission you're paying, you're not going to accept the offer. So the seller does have a lot of control. You know, it's important for real estate professionals to let consumers know that the commissions are always negotiable. However, brokerages can set commissions. So for example, you might have a brokerage that sets a commission and...

35:27 The policy of that brokerage may prevent the agent from modifying the commission. That's a possibility because, yeah, there are different brokerage models out there. And there's some brokerages that don't charge a commission. They may be charged a flat fee. So, yeah, the consumers in B .C. have a huge amount of choice. And the advantage today is that most of those choices would result in their listing showing up on realtor .ca. I remember when I started, there was a for sale by owner websites that were coming up. And, you know, but if you had a for sale by owner home, it would never show up on realtor .ca. That's a good chance. these days. And that helps realtor ca become more powerful because then you as a buyer can say, well, if it's not on realtor ca, you know, there probably isn't any other houses. Now you can drive to the neighborhood. You can maybe look at new developments, but you'd be hard pressed if you're buying a resale home to accidentally find something that's not on realtor .ca. If you had to search properly. I don't know much about this.

36:07 know much about this. I've seen it a few times, but there was like a ghost listing type thing, right? Where you can pay someone to put a listing on realtor .ca. And we were posting. listing on realtor .ca. And we were posting. Yeah. And you just paid somebody like a thousand bucks. to do that and then it's out there but there's no correspondence on it? I don't know what they charge but they charge... Quite a bit, a bit, you know, so it's not necessarily a low cost. And they still have to pay the buyer's agent. Yeah, it's a weird strategy. They don't have to pay the buyer's agent. This is where the mirror posting thing comes in. So what ends up happening is they contract a brokerage to put their listing on realtor .ca. But then as a consumer, they take the responsibility for answering the inquiries.

36:48 Right. So so a realtor or consumer could call them directly. So, you know, as a buyer's agent, I would call up the seller and I would book an appointment and meet with them. It's a little bit like a regular listing, but a lot of times the disclosures are not really there. You know, the photography is not great. You know, there isn't a floor plan. And, you know, communicating on behalf of your own house or your own, like trying to sell your own car, you know, you're a little bit biased sometimes, right? So it sometimes can be very difficult communicating with them, your posting client. It can be a little bit challenging, but they're definitely there and that's good. So yeah, it's generally like a flat fee of some kind, which I've learned is not that inexpensive, but it's an option for consumers. And I think that as realtors, we're positive about it. But that goes into the next question is, is working with a buyer's agent free or not, right?

37:31 That's kind of the thing that comes up. You know, you can work with a buyer's agent in BC for free, and that's probably... one of the bigger myths out there because it's not free, but there's no charge in a sense, right? It's not free, but the price is included in realtor ca listings. And they still It can be, but often it's not. Like, let's just say 25 % of the listings don't offer a buyer agency fee, for example. Well, then, you know, how do you as a buyer's agent communicate with your buyer what you expect to be paid, remunerated if you create a transaction for them? So now... There's a conversation about how do we speak to buyers early on in the process about how the real estate professional gets paid, which is remuneration, which is a difficult word to say sometimes. And I think that's a good conversation to have early. Like if I show you these 10 houses, I'm not going to send you a bill.

38:15 Or if I help you analyze this investment property, I'm not going to send you a bill for my time. However, when I write an offer. and we create a sale, I'll disclose to you the amount of money I'll be getting. And if it closes, then I will get that money. I call it super contingency. It's a very interesting way of getting paid. But yeah, it can be based on percentage, it can be based on flat fee, but... With the disclosures today in British Columbia, it really benefits a licensee to have that conversation when you first meet them. And I'm a big fan of that because with loyalty, full disclosure, avoiding conflicts and confidentiality, you're going to get that from a buyer's agent for free. But what's the buyer's agent going to get? How does it all end? I know you guys can't sell your own house for E &O, own house for E &O, right? You wouldn't have insurance coverage. As in, realtors can't sell their own house. Yeah. But like Matt, Dean, specific to you guys, if you could sell your own house, would you sell it yourself or would you pay the commission to another agent to sell it?

38:57 Like, would you just feel somebody else could handle that transaction better? Like being separated? This is actually a funny one. a funny one. Realtors, a lot of times we'll say like, listen, office realtor B, can you sell my house? But can you do it for half a percent or something? Scratch my back. I scratch your back. I always laugh at this because I'm like, well, they're still doing everything. Right. It's a ton of work. I always But oh, no, no, I'll do everything for you. for you. Right. Yeah. Like I'll do it all for you. It's like, well, like what? So when I've sold my own house with other agents, I just paid a full pop. I know some people don't. If you're going to do one for the other, you're going to share. That makes sense. Yeah. I told my wife when I became a licensed realtor that, oh, don't worry, honey, I'll save enough money on our first house sale. Yeah. By not having to pay commission to all this income. And of course, I never did.

39:37 But we should be careful, though. You can sell your own house as a licensee. You totally can do that. If you do, however, your E &O coverage doesn't cover you. And so I know many licensees that do sell their own houses. For example, in what situation would you want to sell your own house, you know, without any risk? Well, what if it was a brand new home and it was under warranty with a new home warranty? Like resale homes are difficult, right? Because there's a lot of moving components. You maybe only owned a home for three or four years, right? And so, you know, sometimes you only disclose what you know. There's a number of licensees I know who are comfortable selling their own house. And the brokerage lets them do that. We shy against that because of the risk to the licensee. But then also to Matt's point, the freeness of communication is so much better. And it's not biased, right? Because if I'm selling my own house, I'm a sales guy, like I'm selling hard, right? And it's probably better to take me out of that environment and let somebody else handle it more professionally.

40:22 So, but yeah, no, you can sell your own house. It's generally not recommended, but you do see it quite a bit. And to me, the risk is, can I disclose everything about this house that I know? And for example, on a brand new house, which is, you know, maybe I've only lived in it for a few months and it's a brand new neighborhood and there's lots of disclosures. I might feel very comfortable about that. But if I'm in an older property, maybe it's an acreage, maybe there's a well, maybe there's zoning issues, you know, maybe there's lots of history to the property that I'm not party to. I would probably hire an agent and pay them as much as I could. I did sell one of my own houses a number of years ago and I made a deal with the agent where I would help her with hers and that never manifests itself. But yeah, I'm kind of more leaning down Matt's philosophy on that.

41:03 I think the biggest thing that is going to help consumers understand is that right now, the regulator's got a lot of projects on the go. And the one thing that I really want to say is that if you look at statistically the number of complaints versus number of transactions in British Columbia, the complaint rate per transaction per side is less than 0 .05%. So unbeknownst to the public perception or the government's perception, the politician's perception, when we look at it from the regulator's perspective and from organized real estate, which are leaders in real estate, there isn't a lot of problems per se. Like if a consumer has a bad experience in a real estate transaction, it doesn't mean that there was misconduct. I mean, you know, if you're trying to get a good price for your property and you don't like the other agent, well, that doesn't mean they did anything wrong. You just weren't happy that you didn't get the price you want.

41:44 And I think that's sort of part of working with consumers. But I think the profession is very healthy. I think we offer very good service. When you sit down with a licensee and you sit down talking about buying or selling your property, I would encourage in both situations, interviewing the realtor for an hour. You know, I've been a big proponent with this, with the new licensees and saying. If you're going to buy a house in British Columbia and spend three, four, five million, two million, three million dollars, that agent and you should sit down for one hour in your office and go through how you're going to work together and go through these forms. I mean, it does take actually about 45 minutes to sign all the preamble paperwork, the disclosures, the privacy documents. And that's the one step that I'm not seeing happen enough. And I think that that's too bad because I think realtors and consumers miss an opportunity to really get aligned on their values. Because when you explain the duties that we owe, a client. I've never seen a client say, no, I don't want that.

42:25 I don't want you to be loyal. I don't want you to give me full disclosure. I don't want you to avoid confidentiality. Nobody says that. They want those things. But what does that look like when we go show houses? What does that look like if I walk into a show home by myself? And, you know, what does this look like as we work together? So I would encourage consumers and realtors to sit down with their client for an hour and go through the paperwork and really talk about what it means as you're going to work together. And then the same thing on the listing side. I mean, One of the biggest myths that I see from the listing side is I'm going to take professional photos of the listing and I'm going to do 3D and everything else. When the reality is that's not a reason to choose a listing agent. Because first of all, real estate photos kind of look good, but they're not technically good photos. But we know that a good realtor who's a good negotiator does get better results from their clients.

43:07 Am I good at negotiating with you as a seller or am I good at negotiating on your behalf? right for your million dollars or am I good at convincing you to sign the contract and you know there's a disconnect sometimes with that and then as a buyer's agent the buyer's agent writes the contract and so to me negotiation is important too so and I think a new agent that's supported by their brokerage and an experienced agent that has that same support you know, they can do amazing things for their clients. And so hopefully we've shed a little bit of light on some of the myths and the nuances, but that's kind of my last little soapbox. I'm excited about the profession in the next few years. And I do think that the regulator might come out with a framework to make buyer agreements mandatory at some level from a consumer protection side. I don't think that they can force everyone to do that, but I do think it's a really good recommendation, mostly because you want to front end the conversation, right?

43:48 Yeah, I like it. All right, Dean, that was an awesome conversation. I think it was super helpful for consumers, realtors, me. Thanks a lot.