108: The Current Challenges Facing Restaurants in Kelowna with Salt & Brick's Casey Greabeiel

00:00:00 Taylor Atkinson

Welcome back to the Kelowna Real Estate Podcast. I'm your news broker host, Taylor Atkinson.

00:00:03 Matt Glen

And I am your real estate agent host, Matt Glen.

00:00:05 Taylor Atkinson

That griff I hear in the back there, Taylor? Yeah, yeah. Dogs barking, deliveries are happening, you know. How are you doing, buddy?

00:00:13 Matt Glen

That's a sign of a booming economy if I ever heard one.

00:00:16 Taylor Atkinson

Yeah, yeah. E -commerce. Well, hey, funny you mentioned booming economy. So today's guest, Casey Grebel, super interesting guy. So restaurant entrepreneur running Salt and Brick, Diner Deluxe, pretty not bad. Jax. Jax. And then. all over other places, Canada as well. But yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, if you haven't heard already, Salt and Brick is closing his doors still open for special events.

00:00:43 Matt Glen

Yeah. Open for special events. I was thinking we should get the hockey team in there for a party.

00:00:48 Taylor Atkinson

Yeah. Maybe first to win if we can win a game. That would that would justify a celebration.

00:00:55 Matt Glen

We got to win. Open the doors. Yeah.

00:00:57 Taylor Atkinson

God, we don't want to make them wait that long. But yeah, so we just kind of dove into it on like how businesses what's going on with tourism airbnb legislation that came up you know a few years ago how that's impacted his business like we obviously on the show hear a lot from people that own real estate that have condos that got kind of around with uh the rules right with their short -term rental rules and like to hear it from a restaurateur who has a few restaurants like here in the episode like he's got a 20 years of experience with like i don't even know how many restaurants he has

00:01:11 Matt Glen

we obviously on the show hear a lot from people that own real estate that have condos that got kind of around with uh the rules right with their short -term rental rules and like to hear it from a restaurateur who has a few restaurants like here in the episode like he's got a 20 years of experience with like i don't even know how many restaurants he has Dozens, right? At least dozen in different markets. So for him to share his experience was like very eye opening about what has happened in Kelowna with the short term rental ban and other factors as well that he puts up, but like a lot to do with the short term rental situation.

00:01:45 Taylor Atkinson

Yeah. And I think you hear the odd business owner in Kelowna commenting on this stuff. and maybe they don't want to fight or like are super transparent with numbers. But for a guy that has like on quite a large scale, like four restaurants in Kelowna that are very successful in great locations, you know, for him to be able to share that is obviously like there's a lot of evidence that, yeah, short term rental has impacted negatively for those owners. I mean, and he doesn't put all the blame on that. You know, there's fires and covid and a bunch of other reasons but for him to be looking at say diner deluxe and saying well yeah we're down by 30 percent because short -term rental legislation that's tough and to me like to lose a great operating restaurant hurts you know obviously in a space that's built for a restaurant likely the next restaurant is going to come and fill that void and you know that's just the cycle of it to me the real loss is like you're losing these awesome entrepreneurs that have been invested here for years and you know for a guy like that to you know be raising a family here too and then to feel kind of like pushed out and to go back to alberto a little bit more is is pretty sad you know like that's the loss like restaurants like try to make waste and not boom in the summer so they're basically creating restaurants that are for the locals rather than for the tourists

00:02:55 Matt Glen

restaurants like try to make waste and not boom in the summer so they're basically creating restaurants that are for the locals rather than for the tourists It changes the vibe as Kelowna being like a tourist destination in the summer, which could affect longer term for like once the economy does bounce back, it looks shorter rentals to straighten out and stuff like that. Slow the recovery because of the mindset shift with the business owners in town.

00:03:22 Taylor Atkinson

Yeah. I mean, it's a hard thing to comment on because like selfishly we like having, you know, our city to be a little bit more locally run and having less, you know, traffic, but on the same sense, like. having that tourism boom is fun once in a while it creates events and vibrancy and economic stability like that injection to cash in the summer so to have like that perfect blend between the two is is hard to do but when you're getting a form of intervention that limits that owner operator entrepreneur on their own vision is brutal you know it's so sad to see so anyways he's still operating some very successful restaurants here that are doing awesome It's just that Salt Brick specifically just wasn't working out the way they needed it to. And then with the short term rental ban,

00:04:01 Matt Glen

are doing

00:04:07 Matt Glen

then with the short term rental ban, like the city of Kelowna, I've been hearing more and more. We should have Ryan Smith on again to talk about this because I think he's recommending that they bring back short term rentals to the city. But the problem with this is that it's not really. up to the city if our vacancy rate lowers again to under two or under three or whatever it is whatever it's supposed to be like i think the choices just get taken off the table to have because they're talking about applying to the province to have an exemption for a certain amount of buildings whether it's the same ones that were before or not it obviously we don't know exactly what he's going to recommend but if he even does that that only applies if it's over the Vacancy rate. So we have a lot of rental buildings coming up right now. I don't foresee the vacancy rate going down in the next two years or like in the short term timeframe, but like for a restaurant or a business to open up, they kind of got to look longer term than that. And if you just have no idea what's going to happen in three, four years, like how do you build a business when you just don't know what's going to go down?

00:05:05 Taylor Atkinson

Totally. Yeah. We really need the vacancy. yeah to be above that three percent but then they also need to lobby at parliament for exclusion on you know saying hey these specific property addresses these buildings that are purposely built for you know a resort style community short -term rentals yeah like whatever happens the vacancy should not matter you know like we need some commitment no exactly provincially can't just change every few years that's crazy how is anyone supposed to plan anything like that it feels like we've obviously talked about this a ton on the show but when something happens we just pull all the levers try and fix it and then it goes the other way now you almost don't want it to pull all the levers the other way like for the love of god just let things work out a bit right let him prevent him and just

00:05:29 Matt Glen

just change every few years that's crazy how is anyone supposed to plan anything like that it feels like we've obviously talked about this a ton on the show but when something happens we just pull all the levers try and fix it and then it goes the other way now you almost don't want it to pull all the levers the other way like for the love of god just let things work out a bit right let him prevent him and just follow the market kind of where it's at it's a tough one to do you know it's not just up to the city and i feel like the city kind of got behind themselves a bit when they took the legislation that the province passed and then added more on top right so they've made it more cumbersome than that even the province said and now they're going back the other way to try and claw that back to less than what the province says right so kind of like it almost erodes the credibility they have with the province with this yeah

00:06:12 Taylor Atkinson

oh totally and like you know city of west colonna and penticton have both been pushing back against it pretty aggressively now they're allowed to obviously with vacancy rates where they are but um we need colonna to jump on board a bit more and touch base with the local entrepreneurs like casey as well you know like these are guys that they should be hearing their voice a little bit more so I think where his restaurants are like we're talking like right on the water like two locations right down Bernard right in the most prime locations we have Clement and Ellis we have pretty not bad and then we have right across the street from gyro like very high profile locations all of his restaurants and

00:06:32 Matt Glen

think where his restaurants are like we're talking like right on the water like two locations right down Bernard right in the most prime locations we have Clement and Ellis we have pretty not bad and then we have right across the street from gyro like very high profile locations all of his restaurants and For him to say that he's starting like this is like just saying a lot. You know, like you have an experienced owner with resources in the high profile locations that still is having a tough time. It's just like, it should be an eye opener for everybody.

00:07:02 Taylor Atkinson

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think we should just dive into the show because I agree. Pretty interesting guy. And outside this, yeah, go to one of the restaurant and bars and have a drink, have some dinner and support him. You know, he's a local restaurant here.

00:07:16 Matt Glen

Yeah, absolutely. This episode, like every episode, sponsored by Century 21 Insurance Realty. We're growing. We're going everywhere. We're growing geographically and growing our agent base. Things are looking good around here. So if you're an agent looking for a new brokerage to hang your hat at and put up some signs with the broker's name on it, give us a shout. Or if you're a buyer, a seller, or someone looking for a property manager, reach out. We've got someone to help you here. So enjoy the show, you guys.

00:07:44 Taylor Atkinson

All right, Casey Grable. How are you doing, man? Crazy weekend and it was a weekend of bricks and stuff going on outside of that.

00:07:50 Casey Greabeiel

it was a weekend of bricks and stuff going on outside of that. I was sick of a little boy at home today. So, you know,

00:07:56 Taylor Atkinson

that. I was

00:08:00 Casey Greabeiel

know, going with the flow. Well,

00:08:01 Taylor Atkinson

maybe you can give us a bit of a rundown on your background, who you are, what you're doing.

00:08:06 Casey Greabeiel

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I started coming to Quono a lot in, geez, 2006. Then started looking at business opportunities over time. Took over 10 years to pull the trigger. Got connected with someone through a mutual friend that really wanted to do a restaurant project with me. So we did salt and brick. We bought the original, which was the salted brick. We didn't tweak the name much. We did a big reno, but it was salted brick. And one of the main reasons we bought it is that a really great culinary reputation and we really wanted to own kind of a quaint little. restaurant project, then tweak it to some of the things that I'd seen. I live in Calgary and I've lived in Calgary since 2006, 2007, I guess. So I've seen obviously a lot of concepts come through Calgary and some of which I hadn't seen come to Kelowna. So at that point, we really wanted to focus on the local wine and then, you know, share plates, small plates, dining. And then quickly we ended up doing Jack's, which was Beccaro before us, which was three doors down on Bernard as well. Turn that into a cocktail bar. Initially, it was cocktails and pizza. Treat the format over the years. Then right before COVID, we signed a deal to do Diner Deluxe across from Cairo Beach. So we have Diner Deluxe there. That was a very interesting experiment, opening right in the heart of COVID. You know, we opened in that June. COVID had been on for like three months. So very unique experience. Obviously, Kelowna experienced a lot of uniqueness in the COVID times. Probably the most tourism we've seen, I would actually say, which is a little bit backwards. But did that project. And then, yeah, just two years ago, a little over two years ago, got a call that, you know, the guy who had. a bad tattoo in Kelowna, was looking to get out of the Kelowna location. We had no plan for it, no ideas for it or anything, but we were like, this is a cool space. And the previous owner put a lot of money into the infrastructure, especially the kitchen. So we were like, okay, let's come up with something. And I had this name in the back of my head for a while called Pretty Not Bad that one of my now partners in that venture. And so we were like, you know, does Kelowna need another sports bar? Does Kelowna have a sports bar? If we call it unconventional sports bar, does it work? So that was our fourth project. As I mentioned, this last Sunday was our last day of service at Salt and Brick. It's just, you know, unfortunately, just has not performed the way we previously performed, especially over the summers, the last two summers. In the summers previously, we would have done almost twice as good sales as we did this last two summers. Lots of factors, I think, at play, and definitely not all of them out of my control or out of our team's control, but a lot of them, I think, for sure were. So, yeah, kind of in an interesting middle ground. We had sold Jack's almost two years ago, so right now we just are going to have the two projects going forward with Pretty Not Bad and Diner Lux. Wow,

00:10:38 Taylor Atkinson

that's incredible, man. Well, I'm happy to say I've been to all of those venues, and I, yeah. Yeah, I think anybody can go on a hat,

00:10:43 Matt Glen

anybody can go on a hat, so. Is your first restaurant that you opened then with Salt Lake Brick?

00:10:48 Casey Greabeiel

Well, my first restaurant I opened was in 2004 in Edmonton. Long, long, long ago. I don't think we wanted to go back that far. I know my eyes date myself a little bit, but... My very first restaurant I opened was in 2004 in Edmonton called Sapphire. Learned a lot of lessons there. And then, yeah, took a hiatus from the restaurant industry for a while. And then jumped back into it with the other job that I have, being I oversee a brand called Greta Bar. So we have Greta Bars all across the country. We just opened in Toronto last year. And that brand is a partner brand with Hudson's Pubs. And don't have any Hudson's Pubs in BC, but at one point we had 11 locations, 10 in Alberta, one in Saskatoon. They currently have six. I'm not super actively involved on that brand, but we are, you know, closely associated. So I oversee the four Gretas. And then that same group is actually who did Salt and Brick Calgary. So the Calgary location is a completely different, you know, partnership group other than myself, than the Colona location. What I loved about the Colona was that it was 952 square feet or whatever the math is on that and how much my culinary team could do with so little resources. basically an oven and some induction burners, and those guys put out world -class food every day for eight years. Whereas the Calgary one was like, they got all the bells and whistles in the Calgary one. They got the full -out kitchen, anything our chef really asked for, he got. It's a beautiful space, has a speakeasy in the back. So yeah, I mean, I've been all over the map in the hospitality world over the years, right?

00:12:12 Casey Greabeiel

Why does everybody land somewhere? It was about a girl.

00:12:19 Casey Greabeiel

Is that ultimately not why everyone ends up somewhere, I feel? The backstory, which we'll keep very brief, my partner back then had a little boy who lived in Kelowna and wasn't able to move. And so it was like if I wanted to start a life with her and her son, it would have been having to be in Kelowna. So I looked around for jobs for a very short time and realized what I did in Alberta. didn't really exist in a city a smallest border and i didn't want to travel a ton so i was like all right like let's start make clean clone a home i actually gave my notice to my business partner in the greta hudson's world twice two years in a row i gave him okay one more year one more year and then the crazy thing out of it all was that the greta project came up and like i looked back on that project which you know we came up with the concept i think late 2017 and we were open november 2018 in our first location in calgary and Basically, my deal with my partner at that point was like, put off moving to Kelowna fully and run this brand, but I'm okay with you having these projects in Kelowna, you know, as long as those projects, you know, don't require, you know, full time from you. You know, when you talk about the Kelowna story, that's always been the tough one for me is I've never lived in Kelowna fully. You know, we own a house in McKinley, but when the short -term rental rules changed, it became a long -term rental instead of a short -term rental. You know, we bought the house specifically with the mindset that we would short term rent, you know, three weeks out of a month and then we'd be there one week out of the month. And that was with my new partner and my two little kids. And so, you know, that dream went out the window very quickly. It was literally, I think we bought in June. I can't remember when the law changed fully. I think it was May, but you know, between that 11 month span, obviously short -term rentals became not a possibility. And so, yeah, we had to make the call of just finding a long -term renter. And so I actually, it's been over a year since we've lived in that house we have in Kelowna. We're going to jump into the short -term rental thing here in a second,

00:14:06 Matt Glen

going to jump into the short -term rental thing here in a second, but like you have experience all over the country. So what's it like to run a restaurant in Kelowna compared to other places?

00:14:15 Casey Greabeiel

There's very few places in the world that I could say that I've been to and traveled to that I think would be as challenging as Kelowna. And that's for lots of reasons. I mean, right off the bat, seasonality. And I know that Kelowna is obviously experiencing growth. Actually, maybe not in the last year, but had been experiencing pretty amazing growth for years. And I know that there's a great Kelowna 2040 plan. And I had lots of chats with the previous mayor when he was in office and a little couple of chats with the current mayor about where Kelowna is going. And I think for me and for what I've experienced with restaurants, is just the swings of the busy season and slow season are just really tough to take in all aspects, whether that be revenue and cash management and inventory and all that, or whether it be on the other side of that with, you know, like staffing and keeping good staff and every year having to have this hiring cycle where you go, even with small restaurants, you know, like Salt and Brick in the winter and Jack's in the winter, I think our first or second winter, I might add like 10 staff total between the two places. So if someone's sick or anything like that happened, That was always a challenge. And then you got to scale up in the summer. So I always have found that seasonality played into it. The fires 1000 % play into it. We used to be a partner with a wedding venue for Salt and Brick and it was a huge piece of our business for several years. But like August weddings just stopped happening. It was part of the reason the partnership ended up changing was because like you truly like one of the months of the year. So again, hiring a chef and then having one or two weddings and all of August for him to work, you know, or her to work wasn't enough. So I definitely think the fires are a challenging part of Kelowna. And when we have two years in a row without major fires, I believe that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing for the real estate. I think it's a good thing for tourism. There are a lot of people in Alberta that I know personally that have places in Kelowna that had that same mentality of like, we'll go to Kelowna for the summer until the first fire hits. And then we might not come back for the rest of the summer unless it can be contained. Those ones were probably the seasonality of the second one. And then, yeah, we can talk about the short -term rentals when you want. because i had a property that's a short -term rental i have a restaurant in a building that had short -term rentals above it that had to convert and then obviously had multiple other businesses in the city like i can definitely speak to my true opinions on the short -term rental changes let your true opinions fly immediately

00:16:27 Matt Glen

your true opinions fly immediately

00:16:31 Casey Greabeiel

Yeah, I mean, so I'm a pretty transparent guy when it comes to numbers and things with business because I don't think there's any reason to kind of usually hide back. But we basically experienced an over 30 % drop at Diner Deluxe below, you know, the shores across from Gyro there. Like overnight, like almost our whole drop was May 1 of last year until August 31 or maybe September 30th. It was almost all contained in those months. The rest of the year, we were kind of flat. Actually, we were trending really well going into it. And that building at 1 % last summer, I'm pretty confident was at 12 % occupancy because they were converting from a short -term rental to a long -term rental building. So it was very clear and apparent that like, hey, this isn't something we're really doing wrong as operators. The same chef had a very similar staff. We have been able to claw back some of those numbers this summer. Same team as well. So I look back at that $300 ,000 dip and be like, that was... almost entirely related to short -term rentals. I'm sure there was a component of it related to the fires. There's a component of it related to economic, you know, micro and macroeconomic conditions and inflationary times. Overall, I was like, look back at it. I go like short -term rentals is what did that. And you just look at all these purpose -built buildings that have restaurant retail spaces in them that can't lease them because they're not allowed to do short -term rentals currently. And it's just organic. To me, it looks abundantly clear. And there's been some great studies. There's a big one out in New York that was comparing a long -term building above you as a tenant to a short -term building. And Airbnb did the study, so maybe it's a little skewed in their favor. But the end result was like, as an operator of a restaurant in a building with short -term rentals, I should expect two to three visits a week from each unit. From a long -term rental building, it's two to three a month. So like 75 % traffic down right there, just if you're relying on that. When I go back to my frustrations on the changes is I never buy my house in McKinley if I thought those changes would come into effect. I never probably do a restaurant in a building that has been approved for short -term rentals either. So that's where maybe some of my bitterness and tone comes from it. The other one I would say on short -term rentals that I've just really seen is obviously the effect on downtown. At the end of the day, we were one of the biggest proponents of the Meet Me on Bernard program. We were a huge fan of that. We loved it. We really wanted it to get to where the previous mayor wanted it, which was that you could have open alcohol and it could be more of almost like a European vibe. We loved that idea. Last year, I didn't even do the extended patio at Salt and Brick. So that, you know, to me, it went from being this huge positive and it's just like to actually being a negative because there was costs obviously we incurred with those extended patios. And I was like, I lost money by doing that extended patio in 2024. So in 2025, I opted against it. So again, we're just not seeing that downtown traffic like we used to. And as mentioned earlier, some of that downtown traffic, especially during COVID, was almost a negative for our city and got us highlighted on national news a couple of times. And I don't know if that's the change. We really thought maybe this summer with the tariffs and stuff, we would see an upswing. Yeah, I think we saw some of it for sure. Like I said, two of the three businesses I have in Kelowna are up. so you know that is a positive sign but they're not up to the levels of two years ago where they were you know before the fires before the short -term rentals and my last comment on the thing is i just have never understood the inclusion of like luxury properties in short -term rentals at the end of the day i fully support the idea like most of my staff relies on you know better cheaper accommodations most of my staff are multiple people in a house or two people sharing a condo you know like i fully get that there's a need for let's call it sub $2 ,000 in our market housing, but like someone who owns a $2 million home, they're not going to take that hit. And there's not enough people that are going to take the hit to have that trickle down effect happen. So what I saw with that was all the large groups, the friends that I have coming in from Calgary. stop coming because they weren't going to do six guys or six girls in a hotel room at the delta grand and pay more money than they paid the year before for a you know five million dollar mansion right that was my final thought on short term rentals yeah i mean there's a ton to back there my question is i thought the shore was that still not operating as a short -term rental building because it's like a commercial hotel use oh even their license got

00:20:34 Taylor Atkinson

i mean there's a ton to back there my question is i thought the shore was that still not operating as a short -term rental building because it's like a commercial hotel use oh

00:20:43 Casey Greabeiel

even their license got adjusted or whatever so i would tell you 1000 when i went to my landlord for rent relief when we saw the drop he was like i'm losing a lot more than you are casey

00:20:55 Taylor Atkinson

I think almost like the narrative that Airbnb is basically dead here just limits people's investigation and coming here in the first place. Like, oh, why would we go there? You know, like no one wants to sniff around for like the 400 units that are available. And there was 2 ,500 abundantly available before. And then, yeah, with the Bernard Street, like being like Europe, totally, man. Like we just got back from Europe and like that is such a cultural piece that we're missing here. Like, why don't you think that's really taken off? Because it feels like every year we're trying to do it. It just doesn't gain enough traction to really. be where it needs to be i'll be honest like i just think it was a vision from the previous mayor and council and it wasn't the similar vision with the current mayor of council i think that's as simple i don't know like there's obviously some awesome

00:21:26 Casey Greabeiel

i'll be honest like i just think it was a vision from the previous mayor and council and it wasn't the similar vision with the current mayor of council i think that's as simple i don't know like there's obviously some awesome big players in the restaurant game that are still doing incredibly well in Klona. And that's why I'll never just blame all the bigger factors. Like at the end of the day, there's new restaurants that have moved into Klona that are doing incredibly well. You know, Ken and Fo, Humo, Ask Pablo. You know, Kyle has done just an amazing job with, you know, all the projects he has and was definitely someone I tried to emulate a little bit by doing Pretty Not Bad because it was the first business we did that wasn't. for tourists i would say salt and brick and jacks even diner deluxe being across from gyro in a short -term rental building they were all built with the mindset of like we're gonna get these huge summers where it's pretty not bad it's like there's no sports in the summer like sports are gone so if your main concept is sports and you're not pulling a spot it's plus 38 you know i'm not choosing a sports bar over a boat or a pool or something to that effect so but i think just overall to your question is like you just you need a cumulative group of people that have a collective vision to get there. And I haven't really seen that from downtown Kelowna. I'll be honest, I'm not really seeing it in other markets. The last time we really saw that of like restaurateurs really getting together and bonding together was COVID because we all had this shared purpose of, you know, getting government support and landlord support and all that stuff. I haven't really seen that, whether it be Kelowna or whether it be abroad. So I'm sure there's a lot of restaurants that still work really closely together. I have lots of people I reach out to for advice. You know, PJ will craft next door to us. I talk to him all the time about things. You know, I for years talked to Kyle about a lot of that stuff. So there's obviously people that are still thriving, though, which is a good thing. But for an idea like what Medium or Bernard was supposed to be, it just didn't have enough pull through, maybe not enough city support. And then, yeah, when the council and mayor changed, it just kind of was like, OK, we'll keep doing it. But we're not going to really invest in it. And every year, obviously one year it was 200, 300 and 400 block. And then it became 200 and 300 block. And now for the most part, I think it's still 200 and 300 block, but it's mainly just the 200 block that sees any action from it. And there's just no vibe and energy. Like I remember last summer when my first trip, once we had extended patio, it was a Tuesday night or something, but it was like a ghost town. Even the summer before there was a good energy and vibe on a Monday or Tuesday. this was like okay no one's extended patios were even open and when that kind of stuff happens it starts to look like a negative like nobody wants to go somewhere that's got no customers right yeah i think it was last summer i went to earl's it was august but we went there in the middle of the week for lunch and we were the only people in the restaurant so what on earth is going on here which is crazy right yeah you just expect it to be busy every day from may long to labor day yeah when we opened in 2017 like i fully had the conversation i remembered kyle nixon sharing a story with me from when he was still at the el dorado his family was

00:23:45 Matt Glen

wants to go somewhere that's got no customers right yeah i think it was last summer i went to earl's it was august but we went there in the middle of the week for lunch and we were the only people in the restaurant so what on earth is going on here which is crazy right yeah you just expect it to be busy every day from may long to labor day yeah

00:24:01 Casey Greabeiel

when we opened in 2017 like i fully had the conversation i remembered kyle nixon sharing a story with me from when he was still at the el dorado his family was there and he was sharing a story of the bar that was in the bottom it's basil and mint now but cabana then i think and he just was sharing a story about how like i think it was like the two days after september long they were just like out on the street and they popped over the el dorado and be like what is going on it's like this is toronto you know literally september long ends you know have seven months eight months to figure it all out and to run a very cost efficient business and again when i look back at salt and brick i go like we just didn't have the summers that were busy enough to offset the winters that were slow you know and that's really what led to the decision to close that and move forward with trying to find a new operator for that spot

00:24:48 Matt Glen

It's so funny because we've talked a lot on this podcast about how Kelowna is like made city for something like a short term rental. We just boom in the summer and then that off season just turns into a college town. So to hear a restaurant person say that, like, obviously we all know this, but like to make all your money in the summer, then be so affected. It's kind of crazy. This went through like this.

00:25:06 Casey Greabeiel

Yeah, it just seems so obvious again. And there was a couple areas that could be fixed very easily. And, and maybe I think it's in May. I'm pretty sure like when we get the. rental averages and we're well above the two percent like maybe colonel will be close to ten percent with all these buildings that are are getting completed and to my knowledge are not getting occupied you guys would really know that better than me how many of those units are being i mean i can see the retail units aren't getting rented are the actual tenants going into you know the aquas and the water street by the parks and stuff i don't know i mean i remember looking at leasing a space in one water street and this would have been pre -fire that same year but pre -fire and i remember talking to the two gentlemen who did that project and the project we're doing was actually not a full restaurant. And I just had like one of my questions to them was just like, they both lived in the building. I was like, okay, how often are you guys here? And they were like 20, 30 % of the time. And right away, I was just like, how often are the rest of the people in this building here?

00:26:47 Taylor Atkinson

Do you feel like, I mean, this was my kind of take over the last couple of years and tell me if I'm off with you or not, but like, you know, when provincial legislation came out and then the city obviously followed suit and then actually upped the ante a little bit and made it more strict. You know, personally, I felt like a little bit betrayed, obviously from both governments, you know, I'm optimistic that it will swing back and they'll allow short -term rentals in certain. zoned buildings you know how aggressive they get with it i'm not sure but like even if they come back with it i'm still not really going to trust that they'll pull that run out again in the future but as like a business entrepreneur owner of restaurants do you think if they did come back with you know more allowance on short -term rental would the confidence come back for your group of entrepreneurs in cologne and be like okay We see that there is an opportunity here. We're going to go back in all in. Or are you guys going to kind of sit on the sidelines? You know what? We kind of got screwed over once on this. Like we're just not willing to take that risk again.

00:27:19 Matt Glen

as like a business

00:27:43 Casey Greabeiel

More people will adopt that philosophy that I said about free not bad and what the next restaurant group, which is like, don't build your business based on. you know summertime being this boom you know like build your business on knowing that it needs to be sustainable year round and that if you get a nice up in the summer even better kind of thing like don't build your business based on huge fatios another great example would be and again i don't i know a lot of this stuff because i obviously at one point was very active and wanting to fully move to kelowna and do more projects but like the base space in aqua is this incredible opportunity and to my knowledge and i haven't got an update recently but i drove by it in a recent trip you guys might know i don't believe it's been leased you know and that's the kind of space that like you could do an eldorado -esque concept restaurant concept there but it would be millions of dollars and like is somebody willing to do that I don't know if they are right now in the current climate, especially knowing that those buildings were, for the most part, purpose -built to be short -term rentals and to see that big upside in the summertime. Yeah, I mean, like my first experience in Kelowna was staying in a short -term rental building for two weeks. Again, like I just remember the vibrancy and like everyone's just there. How you vacation is just so different than how you live your day -to -day life. So again, you talk about a long -term rental. versus a short -term rental like and you own a restaurant down below it you're gonna see that you know and i can only speak for myself i don't know if you know shoreline brewing right beside me has experienced the same situation as myself but i would be surprised if it hasn't so taylor you're asking like basically if the rules change will people come back but the funny thing is that even if the collota changes the rules if our vacancy ever goes low enough it just automatically can't do it yeah i think the only way and i've had this conversation with my landlord's representatives at the shores like

00:29:12 Matt Glen

basically if the rules change will people come back but the funny thing is that even if the collota changes the rules if our vacancy ever goes low enough it just automatically can't do it yeah

00:29:21 Casey Greabeiel

i think the only way and i've had this conversation with my landlord's representatives at the shores like they would be far pressed to reconvert back to short term rentals. With that risk of two more years from now, I'm now going to have another summer. where i basically have to start my whole project and then obviously during the two years you change things with your model just like we change things with our model if you're not seeing the same volumes and stuff i chose not to do the extended patio for them all their units were fully suited right like they came fully furnished and they've moved away from that model and some of their units right so now you're talking about buying new furniture and doing this stuff and it would be a big investment so i think if you only had the promise that hey if it stays above people set that's the only way i don't know if that would work what a loss for kelowna because like you have people like yourself and all the other uh like businesses in kelowna that rely on the summer boom that are just not going to embrace it and not going to like build their businesses around it and then like you just think like someone trying to do like a festival in the summer and it's like are you gonna do that when all the businesses around are just basically pandering to the locals you know like it just kind of changes the vibe of it in the long term yeah

00:30:07 Matt Glen

don't know if that would work what a loss for kelowna because like you have people like yourself and all the other uh like businesses in kelowna that rely on the summer boom that are just not going to embrace it and not going to like build their businesses around it and then like you just think like someone trying to do like a festival in the summer and it's like are you gonna do that when all the businesses around are just basically pandering to the locals you know like it just kind of changes the vibe of it in the long term yeah

00:30:31 Casey Greabeiel

Yeah, I mean, I think obviously the simple and quick fix of short term rentals would be purpose built buildings being exempt and maybe luxury homes also being exempt. I don't think either of those things would be super difficult to do. And you can also just grandfather purpose built buildings before 2024, even if they weren't completed and just say, OK, there's no more of this and people can change their model like an omission group has adjusted their model to more rental based. And I know that some of the other big builders would continue to do the same. Yeah, to me, such a simple fix. And not just for us, but all these other communities, you know, around BC that rely on tourism. Again, just giving them, like you said, the long -term certainty. And hey, maybe you don't have to say it's forever. Maybe there's a commitment that it's five years. And then, hey, for a landlord that says to me that they had, you know, like an 80 % decrease in their revenue over a summer. Okay, if you're changing back for five years, now that starts to be like, okay, economically, this probably makes sense for me to change my model back. But it's just for two years, maybe not. And again, on the restaurant side, most of us are signing five to 10 -year leases. Maybe that's another thought process for restaurateurs, right? So I just think the one thing I believe so strongly in now after my experiences is like, you know, the guys and girls who are doing so great in the restaurant industry, it's because they're local. It's because they're at the grocery store that you're at. It's because you see them everywhere. And people just inherently... truly want to support them and you know i think one of my flaws is that over time as we talked about earlier like i've been in colina less and less you know i was working so hard to become a local and i ended up you know kind of going the opposite way like you know we talked about airbnbs i had an airbnb in mexico this summer and my family chose to go to mexico instead of colina this summer because my wife just didn't want me to be around work all summer long and it was just like it was cheaper like i made more money on my long -term rental and what it cost me to spend time in Mexico this summer. So, you know, like that's an example of like, obviously I put most of my money back into Kona's economy at my own restaurants, but you know, someone like myself, if you minus, you know, four weeks of. you know, $2 ,000 to $3 ,000 minimum spending at restaurants and bars, you know, it's $12 ,000 out of the economy just for one person, one family, you know? So yeah, again, I think economically it just makes no sense, but I do get the other side of the equation that there needs to be affordable housing in all markets and every market does it differently. Like I'm not a fan of how Vancouver does it either. So, but we can do that on a different podcast.

00:32:54 Matt Glen

I was going to ask you, like, so you have a restaurant in Vancouver. Vancouver's a bigger city. It wasn't affected the same way.

00:33:00 Casey Greabeiel

We have a Greta bar in Gastown, and I would tell you the short -term rentals I don't think affected us at all. Okay.

00:33:06 Matt Glen

That's kind of what I figured.

00:33:06 Casey Greabeiel

I mean, the one area that would have affected us is, like, we all know the one main group that benefits from the short -term rental rules is the hotels. So there's no question. Like, I don't know if you guys have tried to stay in a hotel in Vancouver in the summer in the last couple of years, but, like, ever since they got rid of short -term rentals, like, or minimized them to previously licensed ones, the cost to stay at... any hotel almost doubled like i couldn't even tell you guys i got a great rate a couple of the places we work with a lot and i travel to a lot and that great rate was at least double and was more expensive than staying in downtown toronto on a blue jays game night and you know like right by our location there and it's just like and that's been a trend now for i think three summers in a row so i think it started shifting even before georgia rentals but it's just gotten worse and worse so i don't really think about going to vancouver unless i have to in the summertime anymore

00:33:56 Taylor Atkinson

Geographically across Canada, where would be your optimal spot to open a new restaurant?

00:34:01 Casey Greabeiel

Well, we're opening a Greta bar in Winnipeg. I think I'm allowed to say that. That's going to be an interesting one. I mean, we've done incredibly well. Obviously we're an Alberta based company, that brand. So we've obviously done really well in Alberta over the years and we've experienced a lot of success in Saskatoon. So yeah, we're hoping that the Winnipeg one that we do next fall is a big success. restaurant wise you know it's such a debate like the amount of people that come to either salt and brick but especially of late just because salt and brick calgary is so much bigger i get more people commenting and so much newer the amount of people that especially even hospitality people are like do this in vancouver do this in toronto and it's like you know there's one of those you know comfort and confidence things you just have to build over time with other markets it's funny where i was this weekend we were in philadelphia and i was like this market is incredible so maybe the next restaurant goes to the us not to can know donald would like that yeah yeah donald would like that and what's the general take i mean you've kind of touched on this a couple times obviously being in alberta but i feel like we've seen less albertans come here over the last couple years and like migration wise yeah we're obviously not seeing the increase in population in bc this year yeah are albertans just kind of staying around home or are they traveling elsewhere why i'm seeing so many cool

00:34:53 Matt Glen

would like

00:34:53 Casey Greabeiel

that and

00:34:55 Taylor Atkinson

what's the general take i mean you've kind of touched on this a couple times obviously being in alberta but i feel like we've seen less albertans come here over the last couple years and like migration wise yeah we're obviously not seeing the increase in population in bc this year yeah are albertans just kind of staying around home or are they traveling elsewhere why i'm seeing so many cool

00:35:15 Casey Greabeiel

that's funny i was in a meeting the other day and the guy mentioned he went back to bc for the first time in several years and he he was upset about some of the tax stuff and some of the back and forth things that happened between our provinces several years ago and he still harbored that resentment A lot of it is affordability. My most recent trip to Kelowna, and it was literally the most beautiful day. And I like, I texted my wife. I'm like, this is why I love Kelowna. I was like, I literally landed. I was at the airport, blue skies, got close down to the water, to the restaurant. It's like beautiful water. You know, it was like mid to late September. So I'm like, this is why you live in like, and that was always my favorite part about Kelowna and will continue to be in the long run is the falls, you know, like the spring and the fall before it becomes more touristy. I've always been in my favorite times. Yeah.

00:36:00 Taylor Atkinson

All right. Well, maybe we should get into our wrap up questions here. This should be an interesting question for you. But if you could buy one property in the Okanagan in the next 12 months, what would it be?

00:36:08 Casey Greabeiel

be? Short -term rentals allowed or not allowed?

00:36:12 Taylor Atkinson

Currently not allowed.

00:36:14 Casey Greabeiel

Honestly, knowing where the housing market is going and where it's gone over the last two years, like I love McKinley. I think it's such an awesome area. It's 15 minutes for me. to pretty not bad on Clement. Obviously, the amenity center finally got open last year. There's the winery coming. You're just going to see more stuff go out that way. I think it's an amazing area. And I know how much my house has depreciated since I bought it. So I'm like, if I could buy at present prices, I'd buy again in McKinley. I would just do it knowing I'm probably not going to be able to do short -term rentals there. That would be the big delta. And I have no idea. Again, you guys are the experts. I have no idea if not doing short -term rentals in McKinley is part of why the price has dropped there. I'm not sure. I have no idea how many people. bought in that area like me with the mindset of this is a summer home that i'd like to be able to visit throughout the year i feel like some i don't know how much percentage that is and i don't know how much that would lead to uh a drop in the market definitely been affected like mckinley beach was definitely affected with that yeah people have that same mindset

00:37:04 Matt Glen

been affected like mckinley beach was definitely affected with that yeah people have that same mindset Casey, if you could give yourself or your son, when they're 20 years old, some advice, what would it be?

00:37:14 Casey Greabeiel

My advice always goes back and forth. I have a five and a three -year -old, you know, and my advice to them when it comes to like their future is obviously like whatever you're passionate about, you just pursue it and pursue it almost with like an obsessive mentality. I believe obsession is like a healthy word at times. It can definitely go the wrong way, but it's like whatever it is, whether it's sports, whether it's, you know, art. dance whatever my kids are passionate about like if you're passionate about it like that's what you should pursue don't pursue something just because you think it's the right thing to do or or something to that effect and then i just like i just believe in being a good person you know it sucks sometimes when you are a good person you feel like you get to get advantage of at times but i just deep down just be a good person and good things will happen to you yeah i love it what's your favorite charity or how do you get back

00:37:55 Taylor Atkinson

i love it what's your favorite charity or how do you get back

00:37:58 Casey Greabeiel

so for the last several years there's a charity in calgary that i joined a while back at the request of a friend called one ball kind of a random one but you can probably guess what it is it's testicular cancer charity so i was always you know super passionate about that i wasn't a survivor unlike most of the people on our board but i just really believed in a charity that's focus was on giving people the opportunity to have children one day like that was a lot of the focus was using funds so people could you know do what needs to be done to ensure that they can have kids down the road but yeah i mean i always lean For the most part, I always lean to anything with kids, anything with dogs. Those are my big ones. Right now, my number one charity donation is my good friend Zach Donoranowski. He's at MD Motivator on Instagram. There's no way you haven't seen him if you're on Instagram. But like, I can't not donate. So he does the crowd funds all the time to the people that he tries to help. Like, I cannot not donate to anything he does because the stories are just so emotional and they're just amazing. And I'm just like, the guy blows me away every day with his generosity and what he's doing for the world. Nice. Nice.

00:38:59 Matt Glen

All right. So besides a lot of people going to pretty, not bad to have a beer and watch a football game. How can Taylor or a listener help you? Yeah.

00:39:07 Casey Greabeiel

I mean, I think that's the number one thing I don't ever want to say it negatively, but like the amount of photos I see on my social media from. Cactus Club in Kelowna. And again, local people running it, local people involved, but like supporting the small independence. Like one of the greatest things that happened in COVID was like the larger chain restaurants had to run at 70 % capacity or whatever it was. And it forced people to go try places for the first time. And obviously there was also this huge support local movement in that time as well. Yeah. if we could channel that positive side of what happened through covid like that would be the way so yeah i mean obviously you know pretty not bad is you know a great sports spot it's great spot in general awesome pizza my managing partner there jack harry will take care of everyone he just even started doing 9 30 a .m soccer games at his own decision which you know i can't even think about opening up at 9 30 at my age now but uh But yeah, I mean, we do great with the NFL and the sports there, but it's a good spot all the time. Yeah. Kind of lucks to me is, I mean, we won best brunch in Kelowna the very first year we opened. Haven't been able to get back on top since, but we're always driving for that. And yeah, I think the team we have at both those spots are amazing. And Salton Brick's still available for private functions until the new year. So if anyone just misses Salton Brick, just... Give me a call, send me a text, hit me on social media and I'm happy to accommodate. How many people can you have a salt and brick? Depends, standing or seated, but like between 30 and 45.

00:40:09 Matt Glen

I think

00:40:26 Matt Glen

Nice, nice. I might have to heat up for that. I also know from personal experience that pretty not bad. I think Diner Deluxe really stepped up in Kelowna during the fires when everyone was evacuated.

00:40:35 Casey Greabeiel

Yeah, we had some really great opportunities to do that. And we tried our best to really look after the community. And, you know, one of our partners, Daryl Reuter, he was huge with that. He was very involved with the fire, you know, fire teams and making sure that. those guys were were fed and well equipped and yeah i mean we obviously did our best to take care of everyone you know whether it be a customer whether you know discounts for customers that were evacuated or free food to also bring in things to the front line like yeah that was a that was a great community again you know like it's interesting how not tragic things but you know bad things can happen like covid like a huge fire just the camaraderie and community and again that's one of those things i would put at the top of the list of why i love colonna outside of the weather and just how beautiful it is like There is a pretty amazing community. I built so many great relationships in my time there, and I wasn't even a full -time member of the community. So, yeah, no, I definitely feel the community vibes of that city and just wish there maybe were more opportunities for people to spread the... Spread the joy and generosity. I love it,

00:41:31 Matt Glen

love it, Casey. It's been awesome talking a little bit of a different perspective for our show. We talked about, obviously, everybody in real estate, our restaurateur, entrepreneur on to kind of show us that side. Super eye opening. It's kind of sad what's happened lately. And hopefully we can get this chip turned around. Yeah.

00:41:45 Casey Greabeiel

Again, I only can speak from my own experience. And, you know, it's been a rough couple of years and we've done our best to make it through. And hopefully the other two concepts can make it through.

00:41:53 Taylor Atkinson

Yeah. Well, Blue Jay game is on in about an hour and a half. So pretty not bad. Yeah. Maybe I'll head down and watch it there.

00:41:59 Casey Greabeiel

Well, you ask for Jack, tell him Casey sent you, and I'm sure there'll be a butter bud light on me.

00:42:04 Taylor Atkinson

Awesome. Okay. Well, thanks again for coming on, man. I'm looking forward to having you back.

00:42:08 Casey Greabeiel

Pleasure. Nice officially meeting you both. Have a great day, guys. Thank you.