82: Will Canada Ever Catch Up on Housing with GWL Realty Advisors' Wendy Waters

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,467
Welcome back to the Colonial Real
Estate Podcast.

2
00:00:01,567 --> 00:00:03,033
I'm your mortgage broker host,
Taylor Atkinson.

3
00:00:02,933 --> 00:00:04,831
And I'm your real estate agent I'm
your real estate agent host, Matt

4
00:00:04,831 --> 00:00:05,054
Glenn.

5
00:00:05,154 --> 00:00:05,989
What's shaking today, Taylor?

6
00:00:05,989 --> 00:00:07,823
Awesome news this week.

7
00:00:07,823 --> 00:00:09,836
As expected, Bank of Canada cut

8
00:00:09,836 --> 00:00:12,137
its rate by 50 basis point or half
a percent.

9
00:00:12,137 --> 00:00:14,505
What that means if you were in a
variable rate or adjustable rate

10
00:00:14,505 --> 00:00:17,917
mortgage is your payment will
reduce about $30 per $100,000 of

11
00:00:17,917 --> 00:00:19,943
mortgage amount that you have
borrowed.

12
00:00:19,943 --> 00:00:23,915
If you're on a fixed rate, it does
not affect you whatsoever.

13
00:00:23,915 --> 00:00:24,286
Yeah.

14
00:00:24,386 --> 00:00:26,906
It does affect in the in the

15
00:00:26,906 --> 00:00:28,214
future though, right?
Aren't the bond markets predicting

16
00:00:28,214 --> 00:00:30,246
the future of the interest rates?
Yeah.

17
00:00:30,246 --> 00:00:32,880
We're seeing that inverse yield
curve shrink a little bit.

18
00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:36,185
So we basically want those to be
closer together, which means

19
00:00:36,285 --> 00:00:40,048
variables got to either come down
more or fixed has to kind of go

20
00:00:40,048 --> 00:00:40,341
back up.

21
00:00:40,341 --> 00:00:41,807
So if variable keeps downwards and

22
00:00:41,807 --> 00:00:43,846
following fix then you know we're
moving in the right direction how

23
00:00:43,846 --> 00:00:46,465
much difference is there between
variable and fix now depends if

24
00:00:46,465 --> 00:00:49,362
it's insured not insured rental
whatever much difference is there

25
00:00:49,362 --> 00:00:52,341
between variable and fix if it's
insured not insured rental

26
00:00:52,341 --> 00:00:50,405
whatever but we're still seeing
about a percent gap so damn we're

27
00:00:51,149 --> 00:00:55,329
getting we're still seeing about a
percent gap so damn we're getting

28
00:00:55,329 --> 00:00:54,877
there though if we see another you
know next rate announcements

29
00:00:54,877 --> 00:00:58,869
december 11th and um you um, you
know, we see another cut then,

30
00:00:58,869 --> 00:01:03,210
then we'll be definitely within
kind of nice to just another to

31
00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:04,665
just cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.

32
00:01:04,665 --> 00:01:07,345
It's kind of setting 2025 up to be

33
00:01:07,345 --> 00:01:08,629
a good year for real estate.

34
00:00:59,245 --> 00:01:08,963
What would you think?

35
00:01:08,963 --> 00:01:09,196
Yeah.

36
00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:10,380
We're finally back in that range

37
00:01:10,380 --> 00:01:13,137
where like people now are starting
to have the choice again between

38
00:01:13,037 --> 00:01:16,336
fixed or variable before it was
just, you were stuck on fixed

39
00:01:16,336 --> 00:01:19,152
because that's all we could
qualify people for with the stress

40
00:01:19,152 --> 00:01:19,472
test.

41
00:01:19,472 --> 00:01:21,466
It's kind of funny when the market

42
00:01:21,566 --> 00:01:23,435
or was going up, everyone was
stuck on variable.

43
00:01:23,435 --> 00:01:23,595
Yeah.

44
00:01:23,595 --> 00:01:23,702
Yeah.

45
00:01:23,702 --> 00:01:26,310
It's not nice of the banks to
force people into these products,

46
00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:28,996
but we're finally It's not nice of
the banks to force people into

47
00:01:29,096 --> 00:01:32,003
these products, but we're finally
getting back to that neutral zone

48
00:01:32,003 --> 00:01:34,963
where people have some choice,
they have more flexibility.

49
00:01:30,357 --> 00:01:33,078
So yeah, we're still not really
qualifying most people on a

50
00:01:33,078 --> 00:01:35,374
variable just yet, but we're
getting there.

51
00:01:35,374 --> 00:01:38,477
It's kind of funny when you think
about this, just totally just

52
00:01:38,477 --> 00:01:40,310
making this up right now.

53
00:01:40,210 --> 00:01:42,714
But if the variable and the fixed

54
00:01:42,714 --> 00:01:46,721
are on the same, it kind of means
that we're in a pretty balanced

55
00:01:46,721 --> 00:01:46,921
market.

56
00:01:46,886 --> 00:01:48,286
Yeah, and I don't think we ever

57
00:01:48,251 --> 00:01:49,120
sit on that very long.

58
00:01:49,180 --> 00:01:51,120
You know, they kind of swing past

59
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:51,480
each other.

60
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:52,989
Fixed is always like the smart

61
00:01:52,989 --> 00:01:53,276
money.

62
00:01:53,276 --> 00:01:55,360
So that's kind of the direction

63
00:01:56,140 --> 00:01:56,539
it's going.

64
00:01:56,539 --> 00:01:57,910
You know, so when fixed starts to

65
00:01:57,910 --> 00:02:00,508
rise again, you would expect that
variable would swing and start to

66
00:02:00,505 --> 00:02:01,232
follow it.

67
00:02:01,232 --> 00:02:02,762
Well, today's guest we had on was

68
00:02:02,762 --> 00:02:03,127
awesome.

69
00:02:03,127 --> 00:02:05,418
I've been trying to get her on for

70
00:02:05,318 --> 00:02:08,178
quite a while, huge into data
analytics across Canada as a whole

71
00:02:08,178 --> 00:02:09,273
for real estate.

72
00:02:09,273 --> 00:02:11,470
So Wendy Waters, she has 20 years

73
00:02:11,470 --> 00:02:13,775
experience in real estate
research, 18 years with GWL,

74
00:02:13,775 --> 00:02:14,370
realtor advisor.

75
00:02:14,370 --> 00:02:15,650
She is also on the management

76
00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:17,265
committee for Urban Land
Institute.

77
00:02:17,265 --> 00:02:21,303
And she's on the board of
directors for UDI or Urban

78
00:02:21,303 --> 00:02:22,380
Development Institute.

79
00:02:22,380 --> 00:02:23,750
She just has some amazing

80
00:02:23,750 --> 00:02:23,869
knowledge.

81
00:02:23,869 --> 00:02:26,443
So basically she manages or gives

82
00:02:26,543 --> 00:02:31,186
advice for like Canadian pension
funds to invest in real estate

83
00:02:31,186 --> 00:02:33,865
across Canada, mostly in
multifamily and commercial space.

84
00:02:33,865 --> 00:02:35,846
So yeah, really, really good show.

85
00:02:35,846 --> 00:02:37,273
I loved it.

86
00:02:37,373 --> 00:02:41,974
it. It was one of those shows
where you and I, well, in this

87
00:02:41,974 --> 00:02:44,862
episode, mostly you just keep on
firing question after question

88
00:02:44,862 --> 00:02:45,583
after question.

89
00:02:45,583 --> 00:02:48,827
And then it's just like, I could

90
00:02:48,827 --> 00:02:50,800
just keep on doing this all day.

91
00:02:50,900 --> 00:02:51,440
So many interesting answers.

92
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,020
Selfishly, I just wanted to be
like off air.

93
00:02:53,020 --> 00:02:54,456
Tell me where to put money, Wendy.

94
00:02:54,456 --> 00:02:55,365
Like what should I buy?

95
00:02:55,365 --> 00:02:55,748
Yeah.

96
00:02:55,748 --> 00:02:57,564
I want to do what you're doing.

97
00:02:57,515 --> 00:02:57,715
Yeah.

98
00:02:57,765 --> 00:02:58,657
Being part of her team and seeing,

99
00:02:58,645 --> 00:03:02,378
you know, the macro and micro
where to invest and geographically

100
00:03:02,378 --> 00:03:02,951
and asset classes.

101
00:03:02,951 --> 00:03:05,040
Like I saw her speak at one of the

102
00:03:05,260 --> 00:03:06,891
UDI events in Kelowna and asset
classes.

103
00:03:06,991 --> 00:03:10,283
Like I saw her speak at one of the
UDI events in Kelowna actually.

104
00:03:10,283 --> 00:03:14,255
And they are tied into like the
provincial and federal government

105
00:03:14,255 --> 00:03:18,708
in the sense where they give
feedback on, you know, policy

106
00:03:18,708 --> 00:03:19,987
changes and grants and stuff like
that.

107
00:03:19,987 --> 00:03:18,424
So yeah, really, really
interesting person and get on

108
00:03:18,424 --> 00:03:19,276
following her on LinkedIn.

109
00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:20,626
Cause she puts out some really

110
00:03:20,626 --> 00:03:22,402
good content there as well.

111
00:03:22,402 --> 00:03:24,573
But yeah, I think you guys are

112
00:03:24,573 --> 00:03:26,427
going to love the show.

113
00:03:26,427 --> 00:03:28,282
That was was a fantastic one.

114
00:03:28,382 --> 00:03:30,136
That was a good one.

115
00:03:30,136 --> 00:03:31,458
This episode, like every episode

116
00:03:31,558 --> 00:03:34,516
is sponsored by Century 21
Assurance Realty, best brokerage

117
00:03:34,516 --> 00:03:36,920
in BC, in the interior of BC
anyway.

118
00:03:36,895 --> 00:03:38,167
We're in Kelowna, Kamloops,
Saminar, Vernon, Castlegar,

119
00:03:38,167 --> 00:03:39,088
heading out further east in the
Kootenays.

120
00:03:39,088 --> 00:03:40,700
We are everywhere that you need to
buy and sell houses.

121
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,860
So if you're an agent looking to
join an up and coming brokerage

122
00:03:42,847 --> 00:03:46,050
that's already kind of set up,
we're the brokerage for you.

123
00:03:46,050 --> 00:03:50,364
And if you're a buyer or seller
looking for an agent, call up

124
00:03:50,364 --> 00:03:53,002
Century 21 Assurance Realty.

125
00:03:52,902 --> 00:03:54,532
Also, enjoy the show.

126
00:03:54,532 --> 00:03:54,687
Okay.

127
00:03:54,687 --> 00:03:56,495
Welcome to the show, Wendy Waters.

128
00:03:56,495 --> 00:03:58,008
Thank you so much for joining us.

129
00:03:57,908 --> 00:03:58,560
Thanks for having me.

130
00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,777
Looking forward to a great chat.

131
00:03:59,777 --> 00:03:59,948
Yeah.

132
00:03:59,948 --> 00:04:03,201
Well, we'd like to start our show,
just you connecting with our

133
00:04:03,201 --> 00:04:05,372
listener, kind of what's your
perfect Friday look like in terms

134
00:04:05,372 --> 00:04:08,349
of productivity, energy, you you
know what do you do at work and

135
00:04:08,349 --> 00:04:14,982
kind of leading into the weekend a
bit of fun yeah well i guess my

136
00:04:14,982 --> 00:04:17,176
fridays my fridays aren't that
different from other days i

137
00:04:17,171 --> 00:04:20,500
usually get up fairly early around
5 15 and i have spin bike at home

138
00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:25,861
to do some spin on the bike and do
some yoga and then i go and have a

139
00:04:25,861 --> 00:04:28,040
cup of tea and go through the
business news of the day.

140
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,722
You know, a lot of business news
comes out of the Eastern time

141
00:04:30,722 --> 00:04:31,262
zone.

142
00:04:30,567 --> 00:04:33,424
So check into what's going on by

143
00:04:33,424 --> 00:04:36,256
checking on LinkedIn to see what
the industry is talking about

144
00:04:36,256 --> 00:04:36,482
today.

145
00:04:36,482 --> 00:04:37,915
If there's things I should be

146
00:04:37,915 --> 00:04:39,198
aware of that may come up.

147
00:04:39,198 --> 00:04:40,480
Also emails, anything that needs

148
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:40,998
my attention.

149
00:04:40,998 --> 00:04:42,404
So by this time might be 637 here,

150
00:04:42,404 --> 00:04:45,290
but in Toronto, you know, people
are fully into their workday.

151
00:04:45,290 --> 00:04:49,048
So do a check on that and you
then, try and plan know, my day So

152
00:04:49,048 --> 00:04:49,989
do a workday.

153
00:04:49,989 --> 00:04:51,480
check on that and then, you know,

154
00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,474
try and plan my day and plan a
commute.

155
00:04:53,474 --> 00:04:55,287
So today I didn't have any calls
early morning.

156
00:04:55,287 --> 00:04:58,821
Sometimes I got to do a call from
home before I get a chance to

157
00:04:58,821 --> 00:04:59,106
commute.

158
00:04:59,106 --> 00:05:00,790
Sometimes I work from home, but

159
00:05:00,690 --> 00:05:04,590
most of the time I come in and I
just find it's a lot easier to

160
00:05:04,606 --> 00:05:04,747
focus at the office.

161
00:05:04,722 --> 00:05:04,821
What is the office?

162
00:05:04,862 --> 00:05:04,994
What is your title?
What's my title?

163
00:05:04,961 --> 00:05:06,509
So I'm the Vice President of
Research Services and Strategy at

164
00:05:06,509 --> 00:05:07,000
GWL Realty Advisors.

165
00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:08,593
So we manage pension fund real

166
00:05:08,593 --> 00:05:09,083
estate assets.

167
00:05:09,083 --> 00:05:10,692
We develop, we acquire, we manage

168
00:05:10,692 --> 00:05:11,717
on behalf of pension funds,
institutional clients.

169
00:05:11,717 --> 00:05:14,118
And the research we try to make
sure our clients are investing in

170
00:05:14,118 --> 00:05:15,859
the right assets in the right
team, locations over the time

171
00:05:15,859 --> 00:05:18,700
frame that works for as well as
help them understand some short

172
00:05:18,688 --> 00:05:20,000
term expectations on what they
them, can expect.

173
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:21,729
So you're basically Yeah.

174
00:05:21,729 --> 00:05:23,849
the brains behind the smart money

175
00:05:23,849 --> 00:05:27,942
telling it what to hey?
do, do, Well, not just me by

176
00:05:27,942 --> 00:05:28,235
myself.

177
00:05:28,235 --> 00:05:31,085
I've got a team and then work with

178
00:05:31,085 --> 00:05:52,999
all my colleagues who are a lot of
really smart people across the

179
00:05:52,952 --> 00:05:53,002
country.

180
00:05:52,957 --> 00:05:53,038
So it's coordinating a lot of

181
00:05:52,992 --> 00:05:53,220
brains is sometimes our job to
make sure that our clients are

182
00:05:53,066 --> 00:05:53,170
getting the real estate they need,
the returns they need.

183
00:05:53,123 --> 00:05:53,220
Pension funds use investment real
estate to help pay out their unit

184
00:05:53,205 --> 00:05:57,441
holders, so their pensioners.

185
00:05:57,276 --> 00:05:57,466
So it's very important that we

186
00:05:57,433 --> 00:05:57,620
look after, you know, just part of
their investments.

187
00:05:57,679 --> 00:06:03,837
Yeah, so I love Yeah, so I love
it.

188
00:06:03,755 --> 00:06:04,580
Wendy, what are the right assets
in the right locations?

189
00:06:04,580 --> 00:06:05,751
We look after, we have office,
industrial, retail, and rental.

190
00:06:05,728 --> 00:06:06,876
So those are the four that we work
into.

191
00:06:06,876 --> 00:06:07,524
The retail is primarily grocery
anchored.

192
00:06:07,524 --> 00:06:08,107
So just needs of life.

193
00:06:08,025 --> 00:06:08,820
We don't have big, super regional

194
00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:09,321
shopping centers.

195
00:06:09,421 --> 00:06:10,875
It's very much needs of life.

196
00:06:10,875 --> 00:06:13,221
The right assets, it's really a
combination of what's the best

197
00:06:13,221 --> 00:06:13,494
locations.

198
00:06:13,594 --> 00:06:16,563
And it depends a little bit on the

199
00:06:16,563 --> 00:06:17,859
asset, best locations, good tenant
mix.

200
00:06:17,859 --> 00:06:20,292
Right now, a lot of the focus is
on what your future revenue stream

201
00:06:20,292 --> 00:06:21,080
can look like.

202
00:06:20,980 --> 00:06:22,355
So, you know, making sure that we

203
00:06:22,355 --> 00:06:26,374
feel like we can grow rents at
least as fast as inflation is

204
00:06:26,274 --> 00:06:28,937
coming at us is a really important
feature in whatever assets that

205
00:06:28,937 --> 00:06:29,705
we're recommending.

206
00:06:29,705 --> 00:06:31,591
And resiliency of those rents,

207
00:06:31,591 --> 00:06:33,920
because again, pension funds keep
things for a long time.

208
00:06:34,020 --> 00:06:37,224
So you're needing not just, hey,
it's full today and the tenants

209
00:06:37,224 --> 00:06:40,361
are paying great money and next
week there's going to be something

210
00:06:40,361 --> 00:06:44,901
or next year something new is
going to open down the street and

211
00:06:45,001 --> 00:06:46,488
it's going to take all the
tenants.

212
00:06:46,488 --> 00:06:48,517
We have to make sure we guard
against that.

213
00:06:48,517 --> 00:06:51,629
So barriers to entry is also
important for what's the right

214
00:06:51,629 --> 00:06:51,940
asset.

215
00:06:51,940 --> 00:06:53,445
How's the office space looking

216
00:06:53,445 --> 00:06:55,813
right now?
Is that kind of coming back to

217
00:06:55,813 --> 00:06:59,295
life after COVID a bit?
Yeah, I think Toronto is really

218
00:06:59,295 --> 00:07:03,393
struggling for reasons that
involves a lot of new supply in

219
00:07:03,393 --> 00:07:04,560
Toronto, combined with big
companies relocating to take

220
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,914
advantage of new ways that we're
working, and then congestion and

221
00:07:06,914 --> 00:07:08,548
traffic and problems on that side
of Toronto.

222
00:07:08,548 --> 00:07:10,767
So Toronto's got some struggles,
but in the West... I heard they're

223
00:07:10,767 --> 00:07:11,785
getting a new West... I heard new
tunnel.

224
00:07:11,785 --> 00:07:12,772
Who knows?
The transportation management

225
00:07:12,772 --> 00:07:15,132
plans in Toronto seem to change on
a very regular basis, and we'll

226
00:07:15,132 --> 00:07:16,341
leave it at that.

227
00:07:16,341 --> 00:07:17,057
So don't quite know.

228
00:07:17,057 --> 00:07:18,489
I haven't heard the tunnel.

229
00:07:18,489 --> 00:07:19,835
Tunnel might be helpful.

230
00:07:19,835 --> 00:07:21,878
But in the West here, back on the
office question, Calgary and

231
00:07:21,878 --> 00:07:23,386
Vancouver have had some steady
office absorption.

232
00:07:23,286 --> 00:07:27,451
Calgary obviously hasn't had much
new supply for a while since the

233
00:07:27,451 --> 00:07:27,837
oil crash.

234
00:07:27,837 --> 00:07:30,229
So that office market's had to

235
00:07:30,229 --> 00:07:33,932
remake itself whereas in vancouver
there's more office under lease

236
00:07:33,932 --> 00:07:38,090
today than in 2019 interesting
yeah yeah by under lease lease you

237
00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:41,075
know it's just somebody's got at
least they don't have all the

238
00:07:41,075 --> 00:07:41,660
sublease markets so they're using
it we traditionally call it

239
00:07:41,660 --> 00:07:45,445
occupancy but we're not talking
about bums and seats you know how

240
00:07:45,445 --> 00:07:48,513
many days of the week it's just
someone's got at least and they

241
00:07:48,513 --> 00:07:49,660
don't have on the sublelease
market.

242
00:07:49,660 --> 00:07:52,127
So they're using that space in
some way.

243
00:07:52,027 --> 00:07:55,396
And COVID helped accelerate a
change in how we work in terms of

244
00:07:55,396 --> 00:07:58,620
a lot more mobile technology, a
lot less paper.

245
00:07:58,620 --> 00:08:02,477
If you're working with a laptop
and you don't need two filing

246
00:08:02,477 --> 00:08:05,260
cabinets full of files per person,
you don't need nearly as much

247
00:08:05,260 --> 00:08:09,137
space per person as when you have
a desktop and a landline and

248
00:08:09,137 --> 00:08:10,448
filing cabinets and bookshelves
everywhere.

249
00:08:10,448 --> 00:08:12,407
So the fact that we're more
digital, mobile, that's creating a

250
00:08:12,407 --> 00:08:15,455
trend of reducing the amount of
space per person, you know, which

251
00:08:15,455 --> 00:08:17,837
is what we're working through in
terms of, you know, companies

252
00:08:17,837 --> 00:08:20,950
move, do they need as much space?
If they're growing, they do, but

253
00:08:20,950 --> 00:08:22,909
maybe if they're not growing, they
may many not.

254
00:08:22,909 --> 00:08:23,181
Yeah.

255
00:08:23,181 --> 00:08:24,159
Are you still seeing international

256
00:08:24,159 --> 00:08:26,823
money come into Canada with kind
of recent policy changes with

257
00:08:26,823 --> 00:08:29,854
capital gains inclusion or just
like the amount of restrictions

258
00:08:29,854 --> 00:08:33,234
that have come out in the past
year in terms of real estate

259
00:08:33,234 --> 00:08:35,205
assets?
Is Canada still an interesting

260
00:08:35,205 --> 00:08:36,188
place to invest for overseas
investors?

261
00:08:36,188 --> 00:08:38,203
Yeah, I think, well, the
distinction, obviously, there's

262
00:08:38,203 --> 00:08:41,251
some limits on foreign capital at
the residential side, but there's

263
00:08:41,251 --> 00:08:41,881
not on commercial.

264
00:08:41,881 --> 00:08:43,216
So we have seen downtown

265
00:08:43,216 --> 00:08:47,245
Vancouver, some European buyers of
a couple of assets on West Georgia

266
00:08:47,245 --> 00:08:47,460
Street.

267
00:08:47,460 --> 00:08:49,720
A couple of years back, we had

268
00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,456
also the Bentall Center in
Vancouver going to U.S. capital.

269
00:08:51,556 --> 00:08:53,778
So yeah, this foreign capital is
still interested in Canada in

270
00:08:53,778 --> 00:08:55,537
those commercial spaces,
especially if it's a market where

271
00:08:55,532 --> 00:08:56,409
they don't already have anything
there.

272
00:08:56,409 --> 00:08:59,562
So they don't have to worry about
having too much in one market.

273
00:08:20,440 --> 00:09:00,156
It's population growth.

274
00:09:00,056 --> 00:09:02,036
Canada is one of the fastest

275
00:09:02,036 --> 00:09:04,054
growing countries in the world in
recent years.

276
00:09:04,054 --> 00:09:06,744
And population tends to drive real
estate demand.

277
00:09:06,744 --> 00:09:09,972
And the more demand there is, the
more resiliency of your rent.

278
00:09:09,972 --> 00:09:13,052
So it makes sense that Canada is
on the radar screen for

279
00:09:13,052 --> 00:09:13,570
international capital.

280
00:09:13,570 --> 00:09:17,888
As you know, as I'm sure you both

281
00:09:17,788 --> 00:09:19,793
know, like transactions are very
rare right now.

282
00:09:19,793 --> 00:09:21,206
It's still a pretty quiet
investment market, but

283
00:09:21,206 --> 00:09:23,120
international capital with new
office buildings on Georgia

284
00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,408
Street, what I heard, it was
pretty much all international that

285
00:09:27,408 --> 00:09:28,433
was interested in it.

286
00:09:28,433 --> 00:09:30,758
I think some are seeing it as an

287
00:09:30,758 --> 00:09:33,820
opportunity to get into the
Canadian market where they aren't

288
00:09:33,820 --> 00:09:37,072
having to compete as hard with
local capital, which matters.

289
00:09:37,072 --> 00:09:38,085
And then not it.

290
00:09:38,085 --> 00:09:40,121
I obviously, REZ has all its

291
00:09:40,121 --> 00:09:40,477
restrictions as well.

292
00:09:40,477 --> 00:09:42,493
I mean, I guess you're getting the

293
00:09:42,593 --> 00:09:43,589
benefit of the currency exchange
too.

294
00:09:43,589 --> 00:09:47,419
Like if our dollar's down right
now and to the Euro or US is

295
00:09:47,419 --> 00:09:49,662
higher, you're kind of buying an
asset class that you want anyways,

296
00:09:49,662 --> 00:09:52,188
but at a discount on the currency.

297
00:09:52,188 --> 00:09:52,435
Potentially.

298
00:09:52,435 --> 00:09:54,817
Do you see that historically?
Like when our dollar's higher, do

299
00:09:54,807 --> 00:09:57,866
we get less investment or is it
just purely based on the asset

300
00:09:57,866 --> 00:10:01,595
class if it makes sense from how
the numbers pencil out?

301
00:10:01,595 --> 00:10:05,060
By and and large, a lot of the
major Canadian assets are owned by

302
00:10:05,038 --> 00:10:07,103
the Canadian pension funds and the
Canadian institutions.

303
00:10:07,103 --> 00:10:09,003
So we don't see that.

304
00:10:09,003 --> 00:10:11,197
I don't know if we see enough

305
00:10:11,097 --> 00:10:13,151
international capital coming in to
spot the trend.

306
00:10:13,151 --> 00:10:14,760
It's a very good question why you
asked.

307
00:10:14,752 --> 00:10:17,254
I'm not sure that we've seen a
trend like, you know, in 2007,

308
00:10:17,254 --> 00:10:19,842
when the Canadian dollar is worth
more than the American dollar.

309
00:10:19,942 --> 00:10:22,807
You know, At that time, I think
everyone thought real estate was

310
00:10:22,807 --> 00:10:29,824
overpriced anyway, so there
probably wasn't a reason to come

311
00:10:29,770 --> 00:10:29,970
in.

312
00:10:29,945 --> 00:10:30,820
But yeah, it's a good question.

313
00:10:30,820 --> 00:10:32,161
I don't know if there's enough
data to say that, but certainly

314
00:10:32,161 --> 00:10:33,294
the Canadian dollar right now in
its normal state, probably assets

315
00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:34,669
do feel like a bargain to some
organizations, I'm sure, because

316
00:10:34,669 --> 00:10:37,962
when they look at the price
relative in their own currency.

317
00:10:37,962 --> 00:10:38,162
Yeah.

318
00:10:38,161 --> 00:10:39,601
I guess maybe to stay on asset

319
00:10:39,601 --> 00:10:41,904
class a little bit before
switching to kind of population or

320
00:10:41,904 --> 00:10:42,196
rents.

321
00:10:42,196 --> 00:10:43,540
And I know single family houses,

322
00:10:43,540 --> 00:10:45,131
you know, they're not kind of your
guys' wheelhouse.

323
00:10:45,231 --> 00:10:47,459
Obviously it's a smaller scale,
but do you see single family

324
00:10:47,459 --> 00:10:50,474
houses having a longer runway than
some of the other say

325
00:10:50,474 --> 00:10:51,649
purpose-built rentals or
densification of condos or

326
00:10:51,649 --> 00:10:54,305
anything, just purely because the
cost to build is so expensive.

327
00:10:54,305 --> 00:10:56,408
We't building them we're tearing
them down we're doing land

328
00:10:56,408 --> 00:10:59,061
assemblies like it just doesn't
seem we're having a lot of starts

329
00:10:58,961 --> 00:11:01,574
on single families comparable to
other assets as like a pension

330
00:11:01,574 --> 00:11:04,573
fund would you guys accumulate a
lot of single family houses or is

331
00:11:04,573 --> 00:11:08,269
that something you'd ever look at
at uh it's not something we've

332
00:11:08,269 --> 00:11:11,155
ever done it's hard to get scale
and it's you know single rental,

333
00:11:11,155 --> 00:11:14,821
as you probably know, it's big in
the US, but it tends to be purpose

334
00:11:14,821 --> 00:11:16,570
built, like they're building homes
to rent.

335
00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:20,400
They started doing it in 2007, 8
and the housing crash when there

336
00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:24,568
was just a lot of homes out there
that needed a buyer and often had

337
00:11:24,568 --> 00:11:25,900
an occupant but needed a buyer.

338
00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:27,985
So we haven't had that kind of a

339
00:11:27,985 --> 00:11:30,140
crash in Canada, like where
there's just whole suburbs that

340
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,800
you could pick up or at least
neighborhoods within suburbs that

341
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,307
you could pick up.

342
00:11:34,407 --> 00:11:35,914
So it's not something we do.

343
00:11:35,914 --> 00:11:38,893
You know, your question on, you
know, single family homes, like,

344
00:11:38,893 --> 00:11:42,667
you know, I've seen in BC where
right now most municipalities,

345
00:11:42,567 --> 00:11:45,459
like most single family lots, you
could actually put four to six

346
00:11:45,459 --> 00:11:49,718
homes on it if you were to take it
down, which means the land price

347
00:11:49,718 --> 00:11:52,705
is going to get spread among four
or six potential future owners.

348
00:11:52,705 --> 00:11:54,735
So that's obviously a huge upward
pressure on prices.

349
00:11:54,735 --> 00:11:58,386
And if you wanted to have a single
family home, now you're going to

350
00:11:58,386 --> 00:11:59,864
have to compete with that.

351
00:11:59,741 --> 00:12:00,972
The land price is somewhat

352
00:12:00,972 --> 00:12:04,258
connected to what you can put on
it, not just what's on it today.

353
00:12:04,358 --> 00:12:07,123
So certainly, I think not what we
do in Realty Advisors, but just

354
00:12:07,123 --> 00:12:10,100
looking at the math there, yeah,
we're going to probably see those

355
00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:11,710
prices go up, sort of a one-time
jump.

356
00:12:11,710 --> 00:12:13,880
And then the price is the price of
four or six units.

357
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,486
You know, obviously, we've got an
election going on right now.

358
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:19,108
One party saying they might do
something different.

359
00:12:19,108 --> 00:12:21,035
But some municipalities like
Vancouver that did this ahead of

360
00:12:21,135 --> 00:12:22,512
time may keep that.

361
00:12:22,512 --> 00:12:24,507
Just with the idea of having that

362
00:12:24,507 --> 00:12:27,990
more gentle density and a few more
options for families in terms of

363
00:12:27,890 --> 00:12:29,989
the kind of homes that are
available to them.

364
00:12:29,889 --> 00:12:32,207
options for families in terms of
the kind of homes that are

365
00:12:32,107 --> 00:12:32,518
available to them.

366
00:12:32,518 --> 00:12:34,820
the kind of homes that are

367
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:35,648
available to them.

368
00:12:35,648 --> 00:12:36,045
Yeah.

369
00:12:36,145 --> 00:12:38,794
Are you just seeing like massive
swings in your forecasting with

370
00:12:38,794 --> 00:12:40,209
all the different like rule
changes, provincial, federal?

371
00:12:40,309 --> 00:12:44,463
It seems like we've all been kind
of going through a bit of a roller

372
00:12:44,463 --> 00:12:47,438
coaster, but I can imagine from
your point of view.

373
00:12:47,438 --> 00:12:49,349
The population The population
side, certainly we're trying to

374
00:12:49,349 --> 00:12:51,702
model population in order to then
get to modeling demand and, you

375
00:12:51,702 --> 00:12:53,329
know, and even supply those
changes happening there.

376
00:12:53,329 --> 00:12:55,163
But yeah, the immigration changes,
especially non-permanent residents

377
00:12:55,163 --> 00:12:57,339
some of those policy changes
they're happening rapidly and even

378
00:12:57,239 --> 00:13:00,492
some of the ones related to new
supply of what that could mean so

379
00:13:00,492 --> 00:13:03,949
yeah i would say it's been quite
busy so in less busy times other

380
00:13:03,949 --> 00:13:06,431
organizations also forecast that
we can look at what they're doing

381
00:13:06,431 --> 00:13:09,670
and right now it's been so fast
that we don't have that we have to

382
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:13,004
just do we have to really be on
top of it ourselves we We do our

383
00:13:13,004 --> 00:13:14,919
own anyway, but it's interesting.

384
00:13:14,919 --> 00:13:15,685
It's happening to fast.

385
00:13:15,685 --> 00:13:18,682
You know, obviously the provincial
election here in BC is going to be

386
00:13:18,682 --> 00:13:21,211
done in a few weeks, but the
federal politicking until that

387
00:13:21,211 --> 00:13:22,648
happens is going to, I think, keep
going.

388
00:13:22,648 --> 00:13:23,960
So yeah, it keeps us on our toes
for sure.

389
00:13:23,826 --> 00:13:23,960
And I guess so at a federal that's
where the immigration policies are

390
00:13:23,857 --> 00:13:27,854
a hundred thousand students come
in that but most of those students

391
00:13:27,743 --> 00:13:28,322
are going to leave.

392
00:13:28,256 --> 00:13:28,306
Yeah.

393
00:13:28,301 --> 00:13:28,501
Yeah.

394
00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:28,835
level, changing.

395
00:13:28,725 --> 00:13:30,852
know, year, But I think recently
we've seen like a huge population

396
00:13:30,807 --> 00:13:31,007
growth.

397
00:13:31,001 --> 00:13:32,022
I'm speaking for Matt and but I,

398
00:13:32,011 --> 00:13:33,060
we think that's obviously impacted
the real estate market.

399
00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:34,740
What's your guys' take on that?
Yeah.

400
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,644
Well, what we had was COVID
distortions.

401
00:13:36,644 --> 00:13:39,261
I mean, there's COVID distortions
affecting every real estate asset

402
00:13:39,261 --> 00:13:39,452
class.

403
00:13:39,452 --> 00:13:39,580
Yes.

404
00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:41,849
Multi-residential rental is the
one we're talking about here.

405
00:13:41,849 --> 00:13:45,243
So the COVID distortions with
students was that anyone on a

406
00:13:45,243 --> 00:13:48,320
student visa in 2020 was counted
as being in the country.

407
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,296
So you arrived, maybe you got it
in 2019, you arrived, 2020, you

408
00:13:51,296 --> 00:13:53,748
could have gone home during COVID
and done your schooling remotely.

409
00:13:53,748 --> 00:13:58,216
So you have that group that the
way Canada counts them, as long as

410
00:13:58,216 --> 00:14:00,317
you still have a valid student
visa, they assume you're in

411
00:14:00,309 --> 00:14:00,509
Canada.

412
00:14:00,502 --> 00:14:01,713
And in normal times, that would be

413
00:14:01,706 --> 00:14:03,582
true because you'd be going to
university and of course you'd be

414
00:14:03,582 --> 00:14:03,916
in Canada.

415
00:14:03,916 --> 00:14:06,019
So we had that group that we think

416
00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:10,392
a lot of them left, but we don't
have any exact numbers because

417
00:14:10,392 --> 00:14:11,327
nobody counted that.

418
00:14:11,327 --> 00:14:12,462
And then during COVID, new people

419
00:14:12,462 --> 00:14:14,866
got admitted to university, but
the universities were online.

420
00:14:14,866 --> 00:14:18,338
So you had the fall of 2020, the
fall of 2021, in some provinces,

421
00:14:18,338 --> 00:14:47,420
the fall of at 2022, least you had
an option to be online.

422
00:14:47,371 --> 00:14:47,440
And So you had the fall of the
2020, fall of In 2021.

423
00:14:47,414 --> 00:14:47,440
some provinces, the fall of 2022,
at least you had an option to be

424
00:14:47,462 --> 00:14:47,440
online.

425
00:14:47,475 --> 00:14:52,504
And so you had between two and

426
00:14:52,434 --> 00:14:54,226
four years worth of students who I
think all showed up in the fall of

427
00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:54,278
2023, potentially.

428
00:14:54,278 --> 00:14:55,283
Now, some trickled in before that,

429
00:14:55,187 --> 00:14:57,733
you know, some never left and they
stayed in Canada because it was a

430
00:14:57,733 --> 00:14:59,319
better place for them to be.

431
00:14:59,319 --> 00:15:01,608
But that's where we had this

432
00:15:01,608 --> 00:15:04,639
double, triple, and in some
places, maybe even a quadruple

433
00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:07,104
entry of students that wasn't very
well counted.

434
00:15:07,104 --> 00:15:11,527
And that was a huge burden on, you
know, rental housing stocks in a

435
00:15:11,527 --> 00:15:12,127
lot of places.

436
00:15:12,127 --> 00:15:13,813
And in some cases, you also had

437
00:15:13,813 --> 00:15:17,250
the domestic flows of people, you
know, going to some schools in

438
00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:19,759
different cities where, again,
they started at home in their own

439
00:15:19,759 --> 00:15:22,672
province, and then they had to
show up in Ontario, or maybe they

440
00:15:22,672 --> 00:15:23,645
had to show up in Kelowna.

441
00:15:23,645 --> 00:15:28,924
And so adding to that, so we had

442
00:15:28,924 --> 00:15:30,106
international, we have potentially
domestic students that went from

443
00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:31,479
their family home in their own
home province to needing a rental

444
00:15:31,379 --> 00:15:31,781
apartment in their university
town.

445
00:15:31,696 --> 00:15:32,678
So with students, yeah, we had a
COVID distortion, which thankfully

446
00:15:32,678 --> 00:15:32,880
is done.

447
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,483
There also was obviously more

448
00:15:34,483 --> 00:15:35,692
students being admitted.

449
00:15:35,592 --> 00:15:36,949
There were some problems with

450
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:40,234
these public-private partnerships
at certain kind of colleges where

451
00:15:40,234 --> 00:15:42,129
it's not looking like
international students were really

452
00:15:42,129 --> 00:15:43,660
getting a good education out of
this.

453
00:15:43,660 --> 00:15:44,441
So we had obviously some extra
groups taking advantage

454
00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:44,487
potentially of this.

455
00:15:44,487 --> 00:15:44,910
But going forward, I think things

456
00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:45,122
are going to normalize.

457
00:15:45,122 --> 00:15:45,591
The provinces are getting to

458
00:15:45,468 --> 00:15:46,018
control where their quota is
going.

459
00:15:45,911 --> 00:15:48,458
I suspect in British Columbia,
it's going to be, you know, the

460
00:15:48,458 --> 00:15:51,030
University of British Columbia,
Simon Fraser, UBIC, and by UBC, I

461
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:54,212
also mean UBCO, like whatever they
control, are going to have most of

462
00:15:54,212 --> 00:15:54,642
those spots.

463
00:15:54,742 --> 00:15:57,008
And then over time, students

464
00:15:57,008 --> 00:15:59,500
graduate, they either convert to a
temporary worker, you know, they

465
00:15:59,487 --> 00:16:01,680
can convert their status, or they
go home, maybe they might apply to

466
00:16:01,780 --> 00:16:06,316
come back to Canada, or they might
never want to come back to Canada.

467
00:16:06,216 --> 00:16:09,800
But the number of students will
start to be steady and it's going

468
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,249
to be trending down because the
government has reduced the number

469
00:16:13,249 --> 00:16:14,398
that can be here.

470
00:16:14,398 --> 00:16:16,693
But we're already seeing it on a

471
00:16:16,593 --> 00:16:20,060
very slow slope, but it is going
to be just a very slow slope down

472
00:16:20,060 --> 00:16:21,172
of total students.

473
00:16:21,272 --> 00:16:23,070
And that will obviously ease some

474
00:16:23,070 --> 00:16:24,509
pressure in the housing market.

475
00:16:24,509 --> 00:16:25,838
Like that's kind of I think we're

476
00:16:25,938 --> 00:16:27,152
already seeing we're already
seeing it.

477
00:16:27,152 --> 00:16:29,402
Yeah, I think I think this fall we
already saw it.

478
00:16:29,302 --> 00:16:32,060
There was just a normal entry of
people starting university, coming

479
00:16:32,042 --> 00:16:32,907
for a master's degree.

480
00:16:32,907 --> 00:16:34,391
There was not this triple or

481
00:16:34,391 --> 00:16:35,360
quadruple entry of people.

482
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,358
So we're already seeing it, I

483
00:16:37,358 --> 00:16:40,439
think, as you look at the
rentals.ca, which is just whatever

484
00:16:40,439 --> 00:16:42,220
happens to be available for lease
that month.

485
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:46,272
But it's been trending down in a
lot of the major markets in

486
00:16:46,272 --> 00:16:47,791
Canada, I think Kelowna as well.

487
00:16:47,791 --> 00:16:50,194
The top of the market rents are

488
00:16:50,194 --> 00:16:53,316
not rising as fast or in some
cases are coming down in the brand

489
00:16:53,316 --> 00:16:54,122
new product.

490
00:16:54,122 --> 00:16:56,474
So yeah, we're getting a more

491
00:16:56,574 --> 00:16:58,371
normalized population flow now,
which is good.

492
00:16:58,371 --> 00:17:02,438
And as that data gets out there, I
think hopefully maybe political

493
00:17:02,438 --> 00:17:04,732
announcements will slow down
because everyone can relax a

494
00:17:04,732 --> 00:17:06,992
little bit and just let everything
play itself out now.

495
00:17:07,093 --> 00:17:08,502
Yeah, I guess selfishly.

496
00:17:08,402 --> 00:17:09,377
So I'm actually looking at a

497
00:17:09,478 --> 00:17:11,242
student housing rental complex as
an investment.

498
00:17:11,242 --> 00:17:14,513
Do you guys like that asset class
kind of circle back on asset

499
00:17:14,513 --> 00:17:17,289
classes?
Or do we see like with these

500
00:17:17,388 --> 00:17:19,127
recent policy changes?
Maybe there's more risk associated

501
00:17:19,228 --> 00:17:21,005
to that?
Yeah, can you kind of tell us a

502
00:17:21,005 --> 00:17:22,759
little bit or me just should I buy
it or not?

503
00:17:22,737 --> 00:17:24,804
it or not?
Yeah, so we're obviously not in

504
00:17:24,804 --> 00:17:25,673
that asset class.

505
00:17:25,673 --> 00:17:27,037
We do purpose built rental, we

506
00:17:27,037 --> 00:17:29,521
obviously serve a lot of students
in our rentals.

507
00:17:29,521 --> 00:17:31,472
So we do track what's happening in
the students.

508
00:17:31,372 --> 00:17:33,280
They do matter and they matter to
the overall market.

509
00:17:33,380 --> 00:17:35,438
But as for the purpose student
rental, it depends on the market,

510
00:17:35,438 --> 00:17:38,988
how much is out there and where
students are going.

511
00:17:38,988 --> 00:17:41,346
There's a lot of international
interest in student housing in

512
00:17:41,346 --> 00:17:43,371
Canada because Canada is very
undersupplied relative to a lot of

513
00:17:43,471 --> 00:17:44,012
the other, say, European, US
markets.

514
00:17:44,012 --> 00:17:46,109
There's not very much
purpose-built student housing in

515
00:17:46,009 --> 00:17:46,365
Canada.

516
00:17:46,365 --> 00:17:47,862
I do not know the Okanagan

517
00:17:47,862 --> 00:17:51,944
situation, but it would not
surprise me at all if it's pretty

518
00:17:51,944 --> 00:17:55,194
much the same, is that there's not
a lot there.

519
00:17:55,194 --> 00:17:56,728
University of British Columbia
claims they're building a lot.

520
00:17:56,719 --> 00:17:57,719
They operate a lot.

521
00:17:57,719 --> 00:17:58,386
Apparently, they're Canada's

522
00:17:58,386 --> 00:18:00,519
largest operator of student
housing, including some in the

523
00:18:00,419 --> 00:18:00,583
Okanagan.

524
00:18:00,583 --> 00:18:02,008
So I don't know quite what that

525
00:18:02,008 --> 00:18:03,108
supply is relative to demand.

526
00:18:03,208 --> 00:18:05,380
I still think it's pretty small

527
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:09,962
relative to the total number of
students that are out there.

528
00:18:09,932 --> 00:18:10,132
Yeah.

529
00:18:09,974 --> 00:18:10,293
So you said it was not an asset

530
00:18:10,263 --> 00:18:10,396
class we're in.

531
00:18:10,377 --> 00:18:12,192
It's certainly an intriguing asset

532
00:18:12,192 --> 00:18:15,058
class because of just the number
of students that need housing.

533
00:18:15,058 --> 00:18:18,909
And a lot of the universities only
provide the housing for first or

534
00:18:18,909 --> 00:18:20,008
first and second year.

535
00:18:20,008 --> 00:18:21,837
So if it was catering to the, you

536
00:18:21,837 --> 00:18:24,921
know, the third year students,
fourth year students, it seems

537
00:18:25,021 --> 00:18:26,387
like there's probably something
there.

538
00:18:26,387 --> 00:18:29,729
Can I ask why it's not an asset
class you guys hold?

539
00:18:29,729 --> 00:18:32,141
Is it just like internal policy
for pension funds to like, these

540
00:18:32,141 --> 00:18:33,600
are our asset classes or?
Not at all.

541
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,739
It's, I think some of our clients
may with other managers have some,

542
00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:40,107
but first, it's an operating
business as well as a real estate

543
00:18:40,107 --> 00:18:40,250
play.

544
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:41,249
And obviously, you know,

545
00:18:41,249 --> 00:18:42,184
multi-residential rental is
somewhat of an operating business.

546
00:18:42,084 --> 00:18:44,627
And it's one that we understand
you need scale to be in an

547
00:18:44,727 --> 00:18:46,436
operating business because we
manage like we're fully vertically

548
00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:46,533
integrated.

549
00:18:46,533 --> 00:18:47,364
We manage pretty much everything

550
00:18:47,364 --> 00:18:49,201
that we own for our clients.

551
00:18:49,101 --> 00:18:49,321
Yeah.

552
00:18:49,321 --> 00:18:50,587
So we have property management,
leasing, everything.

553
00:18:50,587 --> 00:18:53,428
So that's why student housing
doesn't quite work with our model

554
00:18:53,328 --> 00:18:55,162
right now because we don't have
any other ones.

555
00:18:55,162 --> 00:18:58,324
And so you only have one is very
inefficient.

556
00:18:58,324 --> 00:19:00,979
Now, you know, if you are an
individual investor, like there's

557
00:19:00,979 --> 00:19:04,489
someone who's got a platform and
they just need some capital in

558
00:19:04,589 --> 00:19:09,037
there where there's a managing
partner who has the expertise, you

559
00:19:09,037 --> 00:19:12,682
know, for an individual like
yourself, that could be, you know,

560
00:19:12,782 --> 00:19:14,217
obviously a very compelling idea.

561
00:19:14,217 --> 00:19:15,619
It's just not typically what we

562
00:19:15,619 --> 00:19:16,020
do.

563
00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:16,426
we Yeah.

564
00:19:16,526 --> 00:19:16,815
Okay.

565
00:19:16,715 --> 00:19:17,469
Good to know.

566
00:19:17,469 --> 00:19:20,134
Obviously purpose-built rentals
are, I mean, they seem huge right

567
00:19:20,134 --> 00:19:22,787
now, at least in Kelowna, like
everywhere we're driving around,

568
00:19:22,687 --> 00:19:24,297
massive structures going up.

569
00:19:24,297 --> 00:19:25,924
We're looking at probably, you

570
00:19:25,924 --> 00:19:28,920
know, two to 3000 units, you know,
that's just me meeting with a few

571
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:29,024
developers.

572
00:19:29,124 --> 00:19:31,158
Do you guys have data kind of, I

573
00:19:31,158 --> 00:19:32,095
know there's a housing shortage,
obviously.

574
00:19:32,095 --> 00:19:35,081
It seems like this is almost like
a new asset class that people are

575
00:19:35,081 --> 00:19:37,900
interested in, although this has
been going on forever.

576
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:41,480
And kind of, we saw like probably
a bigger build in the seventies

577
00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:41,620
and eighties.

578
00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:43,676
There was a lot of these apartment

579
00:19:43,676 --> 00:19:45,573
buildings and then it took a lull.

580
00:19:45,673 --> 00:19:46,919
Why did it take a lull?

581
00:19:46,919 --> 00:19:50,561
And why is it kind of picking up
speed now with like MLS select and

582
00:19:50,540 --> 00:19:51,880
all these things?
So Yeah.

583
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,523
it took a lull and why is it kind
of picking up speed now with like

584
00:19:54,515 --> 00:19:58,268
MLS Select and all these things?
Yeah, so it took a lull around the

585
00:19:58,267 --> 00:19:59,496
time the Strata Act came in.

586
00:19:59,496 --> 00:20:00,962
So you could build condo and

587
00:20:00,962 --> 00:20:03,100
basically individually sell
apartment units as opposed to

588
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:05,565
having one owner for the entire
building.

589
00:20:05,565 --> 00:20:07,863
So that was, you know, the 70s
into the 80s.

590
00:20:07,763 --> 00:20:11,266
Also, there was some different
investment programs in the 70s and

591
00:20:11,266 --> 00:20:13,375
80s that contributed to being an
incentive to build apartments.

592
00:20:13,375 --> 00:20:15,673
So, yeah, we didn't build
purpose-built rental really right

593
00:20:15,673 --> 00:20:18,336
through the 90s into late 2000s in
cross Canada.

594
00:20:18,336 --> 00:20:19,914
It was just a general statement.

595
00:20:20,014 --> 00:20:21,914
So we've had a huge shortage.

596
00:20:22,014 --> 00:20:26,283
There's a huge deficit, especially
just that sort of that middle,

597
00:20:26,283 --> 00:20:29,869
like we've got new and then we've
got really old and we don't have a

598
00:20:29,869 --> 00:20:32,812
lot in between, which is typically
you have a nice spectrum of

599
00:20:32,712 --> 00:20:35,617
housing for renters, which we're
kind of missing right now.

600
00:20:35,617 --> 00:20:37,843
So why now?
One of the reasons is it's been

601
00:20:37,843 --> 00:20:40,995
really hard the last, say, 18
months for condo builders to get

602
00:20:41,095 --> 00:20:44,680
the pre-sales that they need in
order to get their bank financing.

603
00:20:44,580 --> 00:20:47,547
In some markets, there's an easy
option to flip to rental.

604
00:20:47,547 --> 00:20:48,660
You can go back.

605
00:20:20,948 --> 00:20:50,722
There's not a lot of difference

606
00:20:50,622 --> 00:20:53,043
from the city's perspective which
one you're doing.

607
00:20:53,043 --> 00:20:54,148
In some markets, there is.

608
00:20:54,148 --> 00:20:56,368
You know, this is a rental site,

609
00:20:56,468 --> 00:20:58,437
so they look at rental versus
condo.

610
00:20:58,437 --> 00:21:00,234
So that's one reason is condos
harder to do.

611
00:21:00,334 --> 00:21:01,053
So they're pivoting.

612
00:21:00,953 --> 00:21:02,135
There's a lot of demonstrated

613
00:21:02,135 --> 00:21:05,487
where the rents can be in our app,
which helps with performance.

614
00:21:05,487 --> 00:21:09,024
Whereas for a while, when we
didn't have new purpose built

615
00:21:09,024 --> 00:21:11,919
rental, everyone was looking at
CMHC rents, which tend to be older

616
00:21:12,019 --> 00:21:14,135
and it's the in place and the
markets with rent controls

617
00:21:14,235 --> 00:21:14,538
suppress those rents.

618
00:21:14,538 --> 00:21:16,458
And so you say, well, geez, if I

619
00:21:16,458 --> 00:21:19,828
can only rent that unit for $1,500
or 250 a foot, I can't afford to

620
00:21:19,828 --> 00:21:20,295
build it.

621
00:21:20,195 --> 00:21:20,992
Then you realize, well, that's

622
00:21:20,992 --> 00:21:22,156
have a well, that's a
rent-controlled unit.

623
00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:24,066
Now that you can see that others
are able to make it work, it

624
00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:24,866
helped to show that, yes, a group
of renters who are quite happy to

625
00:21:24,802 --> 00:21:25,646
pay for really good quality units
with a really good experience,

626
00:21:25,543 --> 00:21:26,840
nice amenities.

627
00:21:26,740 --> 00:21:27,804
And so that's been proven out.

628
00:21:27,804 --> 00:21:29,655
And that's also helping to
encourage investors to go into

629
00:21:29,655 --> 00:21:29,951
rental.

630
00:21:29,951 --> 00:21:31,959
And some cities have density

631
00:21:31,959 --> 00:21:34,027
bonuses and there's other things
out there too.

632
00:21:34,027 --> 00:21:37,310
You put a really interesting post
out on LinkedIn the other day.

633
00:21:37,210 --> 00:21:39,061
And I think it was per household
now.

634
00:21:39,061 --> 00:21:41,562
I believe it was specific to
Vancouver, but per household, the

635
00:21:41,562 --> 00:21:43,647
average of having income over
120,000 household, was that

636
00:21:43,647 --> 00:21:44,220
correct?
120,000?

637
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,163
Has been increasing substantially.

638
00:21:45,163 --> 00:21:47,640
So there's like a missing asset

639
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,007
class where those higher income
earners want to rent and that's

640
00:21:50,007 --> 00:21:54,220
not on the market yeah what the
post was it was just looking at

641
00:21:54,290 --> 00:21:56,525
where people who make and i can't
remember which income bracket i

642
00:21:56,525 --> 00:21:58,760
use but 100 was it was just
looking at where people who make

643
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,796
and i can't remember which income
bracket i use but 100 or 150 000

644
00:22:01,796 --> 00:22:05,553
where they were renting i think i
put one out on there and a lot of

645
00:22:05,553 --> 00:22:08,804
them are an older product so it's
also a way of saying that there is

646
00:22:08,804 --> 00:22:08,907
demand.

647
00:22:08,907 --> 00:22:10,662
Not all of them are going to want

648
00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:14,239
to pay new product rents, but a
lot of them will, because we also

649
00:22:14,239 --> 00:22:16,219
see another post I put out on
LinkedIn is who rents the new

650
00:22:16,219 --> 00:22:16,593
products.

651
00:22:16,593 --> 00:22:18,240
So we can look at the census gives

652
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:19,360
us something called five-year
mobility data.

653
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:20,725
So where were people five years
ago?

654
00:22:20,825 --> 00:22:22,800
Where are they at the day of the
census?

655
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:27,158
And if we look at just for people
who are living in new rental,

656
00:22:27,158 --> 00:22:29,042
whether it's condo or
purpose-built, the census doesn't

657
00:22:29,042 --> 00:22:30,500
distinguish, but you can see where
they were.

658
00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:33,154
And over half of them were in the
metro area.

659
00:22:33,154 --> 00:22:36,822
And most of those were actually in
the CSD, the actual little city

660
00:22:36,822 --> 00:22:38,052
immediately close to where they're
living today.

661
00:22:38,052 --> 00:22:41,687
So you can see that higher income
people, they move into the new

662
00:22:41,587 --> 00:22:41,767
product.

663
00:22:41,767 --> 00:22:43,033
So if you're building a new

664
00:22:43,033 --> 00:22:44,780
product, it's not just for
internationals or something like

665
00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:44,901
that.

666
00:22:44,901 --> 00:22:45,813
It's actually people local who

667
00:22:45,813 --> 00:22:48,100
choose to move to that new product
because chances are they had a

668
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:48,364
home.

669
00:22:48,364 --> 00:22:50,376
They were already living in the

670
00:22:50,376 --> 00:22:51,169
region five years ago.

671
00:22:51,169 --> 00:22:52,259
They had a place they were living.

672
00:22:52,259 --> 00:22:54,584
They're making a choice to move
into this new product.

673
00:22:54,584 --> 00:22:58,216
It helps show what is also called
filtering, where they then are

674
00:22:58,216 --> 00:23:00,244
moving out of likely a cheaper
unit.

675
00:23:00,344 --> 00:23:02,384
And then somebody who needs
something less expensive, now

676
00:23:02,384 --> 00:23:02,947
that's vacated.

677
00:23:02,947 --> 00:23:05,138
But until you create that room at

678
00:23:05,238 --> 00:23:09,436
the top for the higher income
people to move up, you end up

679
00:23:09,436 --> 00:23:12,016
without some product for people,
you know, more medium incomes to

680
00:23:12,016 --> 00:23:12,407
rent.

681
00:23:12,407 --> 00:23:13,435
And that's one of the challenges

682
00:23:13,435 --> 00:23:14,627
we've had is it's been nothing.

683
00:23:14,627 --> 00:23:16,511
And then, you know, the middle

684
00:23:16,411 --> 00:23:19,107
income was getting bid up by
higher income earners.

685
00:23:19,107 --> 00:23:25,287
And then the lower, what used to
be maybe typical rental for people

686
00:23:25,287 --> 00:23:28,370
with lower incomes got bid up by
the middle And income.

687
00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:31,239
the middle income was getting bid
up by higher income And earners.

688
00:23:31,239 --> 00:23:34,453
then the what lower, used to be
maybe typical rental for people

689
00:23:34,453 --> 00:23:37,444
with lower incomes got bid up by
the middle income.

690
00:23:37,444 --> 00:23:34,004
And the people with very limited
means ended up on the street,

691
00:23:34,004 --> 00:23:37,000
which obviously is a real tragedy
and a huge problem.

692
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,916
So we need the rental units at the
top to just help move everybody

693
00:23:39,916 --> 00:23:40,232
along.

694
00:23:40,232 --> 00:23:40,993
Ironically, it creates other price

695
00:23:40,993 --> 00:23:43,286
points at the lower price points
in the spectrum, which is

696
00:23:43,286 --> 00:23:45,006
obviously needed by a certain
spectrum of the population.

697
00:23:45,006 --> 00:23:46,925
So basically new product of all
types helps everybody.

698
00:23:46,925 --> 00:23:48,182
New product helps New product
helps everybody.

699
00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:48,645
Yeah.

700
00:23:48,745 --> 00:23:50,352
And enough new product all in one

701
00:23:50,252 --> 00:23:52,681
area and the rents stop going up
in that new product.

702
00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:55,466
You know, supply and demand does
work when you finally match demand

703
00:23:55,466 --> 00:23:56,399
with a new supply.

704
00:23:56,399 --> 00:23:58,789
It's been hard to do in Canada

705
00:23:58,789 --> 00:24:00,073
because we haven't been building
enough.

706
00:24:00,073 --> 00:24:00,909
to do in Yeah.

707
00:24:00,909 --> 00:24:02,111
Are we on track or like, what's

708
00:24:02,111 --> 00:24:04,084
your thoughts on that?
Like, are we ever going to get

709
00:24:04,084 --> 00:24:05,889
there?
Are we just always going to be

710
00:24:05,989 --> 00:24:09,656
behind the eight ball with this?
Well, obviously, like if you look

711
00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:12,108
at the, you know, CMHC and there's
different groups that have how

712
00:24:12,008 --> 00:24:14,265
much housing overall Canada needs,
because it's not just rental.

713
00:24:14,165 --> 00:24:17,266
There's also obviously that
spectrum of first time buyer

714
00:24:17,266 --> 00:24:21,217
product that's going to pull some
people out of rental and make room

715
00:24:21,217 --> 00:24:21,934
for other people.

716
00:24:21,934 --> 00:24:23,826
So we need somewhere between three

717
00:24:23,826 --> 00:24:27,153
and five million homes, depending
on what your affordability is and

718
00:24:27,153 --> 00:24:28,760
what you're trying to achieve.

719
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,800
But we need a lot of homes in the

720
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,800
next decade, five years, decade,
depending on the study.

721
00:24:32,756 --> 00:24:34,660
Are we going to get there?
Probably not all the way.

722
00:24:34,626 --> 00:24:37,353
But I think, you know, the cliche
about, you know, shooting for the

723
00:24:37,353 --> 00:24:39,181
stars and maybe we get to the
moon.

724
00:24:39,181 --> 00:24:39,531
You moon.

725
00:24:39,531 --> 00:24:40,798
You know, yeah.

726
00:24:40,698 --> 00:24:43,380
Anything we can we can do, any
housing that gets added helps.

727
00:24:43,820 --> 00:24:44,858
It creates for somebody.

728
00:24:44,858 --> 00:24:46,645
So anything that unsticks housing

729
00:24:46,645 --> 00:24:49,008
helps make it possible to build
more housing does help.

730
00:24:49,008 --> 00:24:51,540
And so even like, yeah, new condo
designed for first-time buyers,

731
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,116
that helps rental, that creates
rental spaces.

732
00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:56,680
Can we talk a Can we talk a little
bit about rent control?

733
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,201
And I'm thinking of, you know, if
we're talking about a newer asset

734
00:25:00,201 --> 00:25:02,661
class being built for rental, they
move out of the more affordable,

735
00:25:02,761 --> 00:25:04,524
you know, apartment building to
say this more expensive one that

736
00:25:04,385 --> 00:25:04,780
opens up that affordability.

737
00:25:04,653 --> 00:25:04,996
But that's really the only time a

738
00:25:04,970 --> 00:25:05,593
landlord can kind of capitalize on
a fair increase in the market

739
00:25:05,567 --> 00:25:06,257
because otherwise we're capped at,
you know, CPI plus government

740
00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:06,855
allowance in BC and Ontario, but
we look next door to Alberta and

741
00:25:06,855 --> 00:25:08,040
they don't have cap on rental
increases.

742
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,420
Do you know kind of the spread on,
like I know rent's been increasing

743
00:25:11,420 --> 00:25:14,101
in BC, but it seems like it's
really kind of plateaued in

744
00:25:14,101 --> 00:25:15,013
Kelowna at least.

745
00:25:15,013 --> 00:25:16,627
Do you know the true increase on

746
00:25:16,627 --> 00:25:19,341
rent that's been over year over
year?

747
00:25:19,341 --> 00:25:22,200
Because if we're just looking at a
rent cap, it doesn't really

748
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,942
reflect some of the increases that
we've seen for renters.

749
00:25:24,942 --> 00:25:27,554
Yeah, because obviously the CMHC,
it all gets blended.

750
00:25:27,554 --> 00:25:31,318
Most people don't move in a year
that are in typical purpose-built

751
00:25:31,218 --> 00:25:31,794
rental housing.

752
00:25:31,794 --> 00:25:33,201
And so you get increases on

753
00:25:33,201 --> 00:25:35,502
anything that turns over and we've
actually had a declining turnover

754
00:25:35,402 --> 00:25:35,557
rate.

755
00:25:35,657 --> 00:25:37,213
So that means it's very hard to

756
00:25:37,213 --> 00:25:40,135
measure how much rents are going
up and it's going to depend on the

757
00:25:40,135 --> 00:25:40,253
neighborhood.

758
00:25:40,253 --> 00:25:42,266
It's going to depend on the

759
00:25:42,266 --> 00:25:42,680
neighborhood.

760
00:25:39,898 --> 00:25:43,969
It's going to depend on the

761
00:25:43,969 --> 00:25:44,063
building.

762
00:25:44,063 --> 00:25:45,108
Obviously, how long the previous

763
00:25:45,096 --> 00:25:46,153
renter had been in there.

764
00:25:46,153 --> 00:25:46,630
There's so many variables.

765
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:48,515
So do we have an accurate number?
I think CMHC rents overall were,

766
00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:50,786
you know, they were up a little
bit more than normal last time.

767
00:25:50,886 --> 00:25:52,482
Of course, it's almost a year old.

768
00:25:52,482 --> 00:25:54,455
The data, I believe, was like 8%

769
00:25:54,355 --> 00:25:55,620
or 9% in some markets.

770
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,393
But rent control has, yeah, it

771
00:25:57,393 --> 00:25:59,460
creates a huge amount of
distortion because you end up,

772
00:25:59,460 --> 00:26:01,218
people stay in units that they
probably shouldn't stay in.

773
00:26:01,218 --> 00:26:04,583
Like it doesn't suit them anymore,
but they stay because the rents

774
00:26:04,483 --> 00:26:05,103
are cheap.

775
00:26:05,103 --> 00:26:06,794
It doesn't allow other people to

776
00:26:06,794 --> 00:26:08,134
move into those units.

777
00:26:08,034 --> 00:26:09,236
You end up basically with the long

778
00:26:09,236 --> 00:26:11,185
time residents whose incomes have
gone up.

779
00:26:11,185 --> 00:26:13,219
They stay in the old units.

780
00:26:13,219 --> 00:26:15,832
And then it forces people who are

781
00:26:15,832 --> 00:26:19,420
starting out their careers to end
up in the new units, which costs a

782
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,073
lot more.

783
00:26:20,073 --> 00:26:21,668
So we get a lot of distortions

784
00:26:21,668 --> 00:26:24,043
just in terms of equity and
fairness in society from rent

785
00:26:23,694 --> 00:26:23,834
control.

786
00:26:23,834 --> 00:26:25,860
That's kind of what I wanted to

787
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,433
ask.

788
00:26:26,333 --> 00:26:29,090
Do you feel rent control works for

789
00:26:29,090 --> 00:26:32,320
fairness in society from both
sides, from landlords, from

790
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,111
tenants?
I'm just thinking Alberta seems to

791
00:26:34,111 --> 00:26:38,276
have some, I don't want to say
affordable, but price compared to

792
00:26:38,376 --> 00:26:40,645
their BC, system seems to work
much better and there is no rent

793
00:26:40,645 --> 00:26:40,705
control.

794
00:26:40,705 --> 00:26:42,600
So is that not a proven model?

795
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:43,130
Yeah.

796
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:45,183
I mean, it's great to look at the

797
00:26:45,183 --> 00:26:48,363
Calgary data because on the CMHC,
when you look at average rents

798
00:26:48,363 --> 00:26:52,073
over time in places like BC and
Ontario, which have rent controls,

799
00:26:52,073 --> 00:26:53,596
basically rents only go up.

800
00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:55,981
In Calgary and Edmonton, rents go

801
00:26:55,981 --> 00:26:58,565
up and they go down because rents
are always at market.

802
00:26:58,565 --> 00:27:02,274
The CMHC rents and the market
rents are pretty much the same

803
00:27:02,374 --> 00:27:04,328
thing in Calgary and Edmonton.

804
00:27:04,328 --> 00:27:05,520
Whereas in Vancouver, we're always

805
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,648
talking about, well, CMHC rents
might say a one bedroom is $1,500.

806
00:27:07,648 --> 00:27:09,976
Just try to find a one bedroom for
$1,500.

807
00:27:09,976 --> 00:27:11,427
The new rents might be $2,500.

808
00:27:11,427 --> 00:27:13,362
And you don't know where are

809
00:27:13,362 --> 00:27:13,500
rents.

810
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:15,540
But Calgary, rents go up, rents go

811
00:27:15,540 --> 00:27:15,660
down.

812
00:27:15,660 --> 00:27:17,315
CMHC and market rents are the

813
00:27:17,315 --> 00:27:17,566
same.

814
00:27:17,566 --> 00:27:19,579
And what's really interesting is

815
00:27:19,579 --> 00:27:23,156
when the economy starts to boom,
rents go up, developers all go

816
00:27:23,156 --> 00:27:25,718
build rental, probably build a
little more of it that's needed.

817
00:27:25,718 --> 00:27:30,047
But that also works for renters
because then it's a boom and bust

818
00:27:30,047 --> 00:27:30,249
market.

819
00:27:30,249 --> 00:27:32,028
And when the economy starts to

820
00:27:32,028 --> 00:27:34,373
contract and people are losing
their jobs, rents typically go

821
00:27:34,373 --> 00:27:37,724
down because there's a little bit
less demand, and so they go down.

822
00:27:37,724 --> 00:27:40,548
And so it works for renters when
you think about it.

823
00:27:40,548 --> 00:27:42,381
When their incomes are rising,
rents go up.

824
00:27:42,381 --> 00:27:44,280
And when their incomes are
falling, rents go down.

825
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:44,884
So it's a much more balanced and
equitable system for everybody.

826
00:27:44,873 --> 00:27:45,774
Now, it's a little tougher.

827
00:27:45,774 --> 00:27:47,655
If you're an you investor, a

828
00:27:47,655 --> 00:27:48,234
little tougher.

829
00:27:48,234 --> 00:27:50,099
know, If you're an you got

830
00:27:50,099 --> 00:27:52,433
investor, to be ready to ride both
of those waves.

831
00:27:52,433 --> 00:27:53,916
But in you do better.

832
00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:55,776
generally, In you do better as

833
00:27:55,776 --> 00:27:58,640
general, an investor because rents
can move to market when the time

834
00:27:58,540 --> 00:27:58,940
is right.

835
00:27:58,940 --> 00:28:00,845
But you can't do it in other

836
00:28:00,745 --> 00:28:00,982
markets.

837
00:28:00,982 --> 00:28:03,626
You have to wait for a resident to

838
00:28:03,626 --> 00:28:03,875
move.

839
00:28:03,875 --> 00:28:04,310
Yeah.

840
00:28:04,410 --> 00:28:06,645
You're on the board of right?
UDI, UDI, I am.

841
00:28:06,645 --> 00:28:06,996
Okay.

842
00:28:06,996 --> 00:28:07,147
Yeah.

843
00:28:07,147 --> 00:28:10,037
I actually, I saw you at an event,
I think a while ago.

844
00:28:09,937 --> 00:28:11,823
And so it just registered for me.

845
00:28:11,823 --> 00:28:13,809
I know you guys help communicate a

846
00:28:13,709 --> 00:28:17,091
lot, like at a provincial level, a
lot of this data.

847
00:28:16,991 --> 00:28:20,362
Is this something that's been
brought up to BC province saying

848
00:28:20,362 --> 00:28:23,523
like, Hey, maybe rent control the
way we have it set up isn't the

849
00:28:23,523 --> 00:28:24,297
right thing.

850
00:28:24,297 --> 00:28:25,200
Oh, for sure.

851
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,703
UDI did have a recent letter to
Ravi Kala on pointing out some,

852
00:28:27,703 --> 00:28:29,723
some challenges also to try and
get more rental built because

853
00:28:29,723 --> 00:28:32,118
ultimately urban development
institute is about for UDI did

854
00:28:32,118 --> 00:28:35,614
have a recent letter to Ravi Kala
on pointing out some challenges.

855
00:28:35,714 --> 00:28:35,982
Oh, sure.

856
00:28:35,982 --> 00:28:38,068
Also to try and get more rental

857
00:28:38,068 --> 00:28:41,190
built, because ultimately Urban
Development Institute is about

858
00:28:41,090 --> 00:28:45,500
trying you to, know, it's really
home builders and other commercial

859
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:50,367
builders as well.

860
00:28:50,226 --> 00:28:50,702
But it's about getting buildings

861
00:28:50,575 --> 00:28:50,775
built.

862
00:28:50,692 --> 00:28:51,227
But also Landlord which BC, is the

863
00:28:51,085 --> 00:28:51,397
association for residential rental
property owners.

864
00:28:51,376 --> 00:28:51,845
They do some advocacy.

865
00:28:51,845 --> 00:28:53,220
The challenge is once it's there,

866
00:28:53,820 --> 00:28:55,146
it's how do you unwind rent
control?

867
00:28:55,146 --> 00:28:56,399
do some The challenge advocacy.

868
00:28:56,399 --> 00:28:58,155
is once it's it's how there, do

869
00:28:58,155 --> 00:29:01,359
you unwind rent control?
In it used to be CPI plus which I

870
00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:04,278
think when you started this
conversation, BC, two, we were

871
00:29:04,278 --> 00:29:08,642
talking about, it used to be that
rent guidelines was CPI plus 2%.

872
00:29:08,642 --> 00:29:12,571
But in the last, maybe five, four
or five years, in about 2018, it

873
00:29:12,571 --> 00:29:14,888
went back down to CPI only, which
is very low.

874
00:29:14,888 --> 00:29:16,557
And that's the overall CPI.

875
00:29:16,657 --> 00:29:18,034
But a lot of the operating costs

876
00:29:18,034 --> 00:29:19,939
on buildings have been going up
much faster than CPI.

877
00:29:19,939 --> 00:29:21,954
So faster than inflation.

878
00:29:21,854 --> 00:29:24,536
Incomes, in most cases, a lot of

879
00:29:24,536 --> 00:29:27,126
it going up faster than inflation.

880
00:29:27,026 --> 00:29:29,325
So but rents have been tied

881
00:29:29,325 --> 00:29:30,077
strictly to CPI.

882
00:29:30,077 --> 00:29:31,886
And then there was two years

883
00:29:31,786 --> 00:29:34,284
during COVID when they were frozen
at zero.

884
00:29:34,284 --> 00:29:38,036
You know, the landlord BC
membership, which is a lot of

885
00:29:38,036 --> 00:29:41,044
smaller landlords with these older
buildings, and they've been really

886
00:29:41,044 --> 00:29:43,877
struggling because operating costs
have gone up more than inflation.

887
00:29:43,877 --> 00:29:47,625
And their rents, you know, if you
look at a four or five year basis,

888
00:29:47,625 --> 00:29:49,307
have we been even allowed to
increase?

889
00:29:49,207 --> 00:29:51,694
You know, hopefully they've had
some turnover where they've been

890
00:29:51,694 --> 00:29:54,017
able to get a little bit more
revenue in.

891
00:29:54,017 --> 00:29:55,663
But it's really creating some
challenges in the rental sector.

892
00:29:55,663 --> 00:29:57,191
What's been happening the last few
years?

893
00:29:57,091 --> 00:29:57,336
Yeah.

894
00:29:57,336 --> 00:29:58,856
Do you still like the B.C. market

895
00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:01,605
because of the tenancy board?
You know, the difficulties that we

896
00:30:01,605 --> 00:30:05,594
face in rent control, I guess,
just does it come down like to

897
00:30:05,437 --> 00:30:05,680
oversimplify it?
Is it supply and demand?

898
00:30:05,637 --> 00:30:08,643
We don't have enough housing.

899
00:30:08,614 --> 00:30:08,860
We still believe in the BC market.

900
00:30:08,741 --> 00:30:10,260
I think our clients I think our
clients do.

901
00:30:10,229 --> 00:30:14,856
We really do like the BC market.

902
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:15,100
So rent control is moved back up.

903
00:30:14,963 --> 00:30:16,681
We really like having new supply
and, you know, having new purpose

904
00:30:16,641 --> 00:30:18,849
built rental in this market.

905
00:30:18,849 --> 00:30:19,200
That's what we believe in.

906
00:30:19,173 --> 00:30:19,880
We've got development sites.

907
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:21,320
So we've opened two new buildings

908
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,381
in the Vancouver market since
COVID, one on Robson Street and

909
00:30:25,381 --> 00:30:26,170
one just off Lonsdale in North
Vancouver.

910
00:30:26,170 --> 00:30:27,457
And we've got more development
sites on Robson Street.

911
00:30:27,457 --> 00:30:28,827
We've got another development site
in the Lonsdale area.

912
00:30:28,827 --> 00:30:30,445
And we've also got another one in
the downtown peninsula.

913
00:30:30,445 --> 00:30:32,702
So we do believe in this market.

914
00:30:32,702 --> 00:30:33,900
We really do like that

915
00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:36,700
experiential rental, very well
amenitized, great walkable

916
00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:37,647
locations and high quality.

917
00:30:37,647 --> 00:30:38,657
So we definitely like that.

918
00:30:38,657 --> 00:30:41,017
We still believe in this market.

919
00:30:40,917 --> 00:30:41,964
You know, newer rental, you

920
00:30:41,964 --> 00:30:44,972
obviously can get your rents right
at market when it gets leased out.

921
00:30:44,923 --> 00:30:45,000
So we still believe in this
market.

922
00:30:44,936 --> 00:30:45,000
I think, you know, buy an older
rental.

923
00:30:44,963 --> 00:30:45,000
There's opportunities and
challenges in that, which every

924
00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:45,000
building you just work through it.

925
00:30:44,992 --> 00:30:45,000
There's definitely opportunities

926
00:30:45,065 --> 00:30:52,620
to invest.

927
00:30:52,528 --> 00:30:53,132
The inequities are more from a

928
00:30:53,193 --> 00:30:53,455
renter perspective.

929
00:30:53,443 --> 00:30:54,385
There's challenges for renters

930
00:30:54,385 --> 00:30:55,705
that I was talking about earlier,
but as an investment asset class,

931
00:30:55,705 --> 00:30:56,901
still like BC, still like the
asset class nationally.

932
00:30:56,835 --> 00:30:58,012
We have a very large rental
development pipeline nationally.

933
00:30:58,047 --> 00:31:00,998
So just having some best in class
real estate, we believe in this

934
00:31:00,898 --> 00:31:03,217
market, lots of renters, renter
incomes are going up.

935
00:31:03,217 --> 00:31:04,740
They're not buying as often.

936
00:31:04,740 --> 00:31:05,089
The percentage of renters in

937
00:31:04,962 --> 00:31:05,293
Canada is going up.

938
00:31:05,126 --> 00:31:05,340
We do like this asset class

939
00:31:05,274 --> 00:31:05,340
long-term.

940
00:31:09,220 --> 00:31:09,292
It's just, it's the right assets

941
00:31:09,246 --> 00:31:09,320
in the right locations.

942
00:31:09,274 --> 00:31:09,320
And you can say that about every

943
00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:16,528
asset class, but rental in
particular, right assets, right

944
00:31:16,528 --> 00:31:16,728
locations.

945
00:31:16,687 --> 00:31:16,887
Yeah.

946
00:31:16,845 --> 00:31:17,954
I kind of have to ask Yeah.

947
00:31:17,954 --> 00:31:19,380
I kind of have to ask now, like as

948
00:31:19,380 --> 00:31:20,926
a smaller investor, we look at
buildings that have been sold.

949
00:31:20,924 --> 00:31:22,259
Obviously like they're fairly
large buildings.

950
00:31:22,259 --> 00:31:25,551
Vancouver is a perfect example of
like, wow, that sold at a 2.8 cap.

951
00:31:25,551 --> 00:31:27,765
Who is buying that?
And I'm thinking maybe you guys

952
00:31:27,765 --> 00:31:29,182
are buying that.

953
00:31:29,082 --> 00:31:29,800
Maybe you're not.

954
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,793
I'm putting words in your mouth.

955
00:31:30,793 --> 00:31:33,348
But in terms of a cap rate, do you

956
00:31:33,348 --> 00:31:36,484
guys have like, we won't go below
this kind of cap rate at asset

957
00:31:36,484 --> 00:31:38,491
cash flow or for institutional
pension fund type money?

958
00:31:38,491 --> 00:31:41,790
It's such a long play, mostly on
like appreciation that you guys

959
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:45,427
are willing to go after those type
of asset classes?

960
00:31:45,427 --> 00:31:48,766
Yeah, I mean, I think cap rate, it
can be a somewhat problematic

961
00:31:48,666 --> 00:31:49,852
measure, because a lot of
buildings when they trade, when

962
00:31:49,831 --> 00:31:53,020
any building actually trades, but
in residential trades in

963
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,722
Vancouver, yeah, the cap rate
looks low, but it's being traded

964
00:31:55,695 --> 00:31:56,386
as a covered land play.

965
00:31:56,386 --> 00:31:57,784
So it's a future development site.

966
00:31:57,775 --> 00:32:01,400
So that could be one reason why a
cap rate is going to be low.

967
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,068
But with any building right now,
it's all about the future revenue

968
00:32:04,068 --> 00:32:04,235
stream.

969
00:32:04,235 --> 00:32:09,372
And so you might go with any

970
00:32:09,279 --> 00:32:10,570
asset, you might see someone buy
something that seems a bit low on

971
00:32:10,477 --> 00:32:11,621
the cap rate, but if rents are
substantially under market, and

972
00:32:11,621 --> 00:32:13,235
there's an obvious path to get
them there, residential rental is

973
00:32:13,335 --> 00:32:15,215
a little more challenging, but you
could still see a path to get

974
00:32:15,215 --> 00:32:15,331
there.

975
00:32:15,331 --> 00:32:17,020
Some groups do, but other types of

976
00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:19,404
asset classes without rent
control, you might say, yeah, when

977
00:32:19,404 --> 00:32:22,650
these leases expire, we're going
to move them back up to market.

978
00:32:22,745 --> 00:32:25,377
So it's all about that future
revenue stream is really where

979
00:32:25,277 --> 00:32:28,419
pricing is at right now is, you
know, how much are rents at

980
00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:29,621
market?
Are they below market?

981
00:32:29,621 --> 00:32:32,761
Are they above market?
That would be problematic for a

982
00:32:32,761 --> 00:32:33,680
low cap rate.

983
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,114
But that's what investors are

984
00:32:35,014 --> 00:32:37,587
looking at is that future income
stream and the reliability of that

985
00:32:37,587 --> 00:32:38,264
future income stream.

986
00:32:38,264 --> 00:32:38,409
Okay.

987
00:32:38,409 --> 00:32:39,812
Airbnb legislation, how has it
impacted current rent?

988
00:32:39,812 --> 00:32:44,284
I mean, obviously the window on
data is very small and it probably

989
00:32:44,284 --> 00:32:48,317
isn't even out yet, but has it
achieved provincially what they

990
00:32:48,317 --> 00:32:51,482
were trying to achieve by putting
more units on the market?

991
00:32:51,582 --> 00:32:53,868
Well, one of the of the
challenges, like obviously some

992
00:32:53,868 --> 00:32:55,753
markets like Vancouver have had
Airbnb restrictions for a number

993
00:32:55,753 --> 00:32:56,119
of years.

994
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:57,216
The province-wide one is more

995
00:32:57,316 --> 00:32:57,629
recent.

996
00:32:57,529 --> 00:32:58,935
We've been talking about how rents

997
00:32:58,835 --> 00:32:59,880
have stabilized.

998
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,779
Some of the rents in the top of

999
00:33:01,779 --> 00:33:05,680
the market have come down a little
bit, especially if you look at

1000
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:05,920
rentals.ca.

1001
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,911
I think Kelowna is off like 5% or

1002
00:33:08,911 --> 00:33:10,964
6% year on year in rentals.ca,
which is whatever's available.

1003
00:33:10,964 --> 00:33:12,900
So it's coincided with rents
coming down.

1004
00:33:13,060 --> 00:33:16,873
I think it's a stretch to say it's
caused rents to go down because I

1005
00:33:16,873 --> 00:33:18,819
think ultimately it's about
population.

1006
00:33:18,819 --> 00:33:20,590
You know, population has been
easing as well.

1007
00:33:20,590 --> 00:33:24,443
We didn't have the triple entry of
students and also we didn't get

1008
00:33:24,343 --> 00:33:26,654
into, you know, extra entries of
non-permanent residents, workers

1009
00:33:26,654 --> 00:33:27,662
as well in there.

1010
00:33:27,662 --> 00:33:28,847
So is it making a difference?

1011
00:33:28,847 --> 00:33:30,176
It's obviously in there.

1012
00:33:30,276 --> 00:33:31,648
If you add a few hundred formerly

1013
00:33:31,648 --> 00:33:34,133
Airbnb units into the rental
supply, that's going to make a

1014
00:33:34,233 --> 00:33:34,588
difference.

1015
00:33:34,488 --> 00:33:36,604
But it's hard to say because

1016
00:33:36,504 --> 00:33:37,789
there's so many other factors that
are stabilizing rents right now.

1017
00:33:37,689 --> 00:33:39,169
New supply, easing demand growth,
short-term rentals, it can be

1018
00:33:39,169 --> 00:33:41,024
problematic in terms of how a
city's planning.

1019
00:33:41,024 --> 00:33:45,403
So I do get some of the policy
reasons for thinking about

1020
00:33:45,403 --> 00:33:45,626
restricting them.

1021
00:33:45,626 --> 00:33:48,072
But I think the research is so-so

1022
00:33:48,072 --> 00:33:49,036
on what they actually do.

1023
00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,219
And the problem is that you don't

1024
00:33:51,219 --> 00:33:51,925
run a perfect experiment.

1025
00:33:52,025 --> 00:33:53,250
You know, rents are coming down

1026
00:33:53,250 --> 00:33:54,925
for other reasons, right?
know, rents are coming down for

1027
00:33:54,925 --> 00:33:55,926
other reasons, right?
Yeah, I know.

1028
00:33:55,926 --> 00:33:56,555
I know.

1029
00:33:56,455 --> 00:33:58,045
I know that was a tough one to

1030
00:33:58,045 --> 00:33:58,429
finish on.

1031
00:33:58,429 --> 00:33:59,769
It was a tough one.

1032
00:33:59,769 --> 00:34:02,300
Yeah, it's a tough one.

1033
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:03,640
It was a tough one.

1034
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,060
Yeah, it's a tough one.

1035
00:34:06,060 --> 00:34:07,433
And I know Kelowna is a hot-button

1036
00:34:07,433 --> 00:34:07,697
issue.

1037
00:34:07,697 --> 00:34:10,527
I do know in Kelowna you because,

1038
00:34:10,427 --> 00:34:13,213
these rules know, changed after
people have made some investment I

1039
00:34:13,313 --> 00:34:14,232
feel decisions.

1040
00:34:14,232 --> 00:34:15,251
for At the same them.

1041
00:34:15,234 --> 00:34:18,069
I do sort time, of feel for the
city the planners, provincial

1042
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:21,129
planners thinking if we're like,
building a condo we're thinking

1043
00:34:21,129 --> 00:34:24,340
tower, that this is housing
towards our housing needs in And

1044
00:34:24,340 --> 00:34:24,687
if Canada.

1045
00:34:24,687 --> 00:34:26,391
they're being used as hotel rooms,

1046
00:34:26,391 --> 00:34:27,516
you that's, a know, So challenge.

1047
00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:28,530
I have sympathy for the quick

1048
00:34:28,530 --> 00:34:31,467
change and the retroactive change
that hit cities across the world

1049
00:34:31,467 --> 00:34:36,172
that are having to get a handle on
what to do you know, about, how to

1050
00:34:36,172 --> 00:34:37,896
manage this in a way that works
for everybody.

1051
00:34:37,896 --> 00:34:41,485
So I do have sympathy for people
in Kelowna because I do know that

1052
00:34:41,485 --> 00:34:43,732
some buildings really being sort
of financed the idea that of a

1053
00:34:43,714 --> 00:34:46,120
certain number of units, we're
going to be Airbnb.

1054
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:46,239
Yeah.

1055
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,739
It's a complex issue for sure.

1056
00:34:47,739 --> 00:34:48,040
Okay.

1057
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,828
Well, we'd love to kind of go into

1058
00:34:49,828 --> 00:34:50,492
our wrap-up questions.

1059
00:34:50,391 --> 00:34:51,760
If you could buy one property in

1060
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,646
the Okanagan in the next 12
months, what would it be?

1061
00:34:54,646 --> 00:34:58,000
Well, me personally, so this
wouldn't be an investment.

1062
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,985
I'd probably get something like a
Silver Star because I like to ski

1063
00:35:00,985 --> 00:35:03,447
and I like to cross country and
downhill.

1064
00:35:03,447 --> 00:35:06,219
So actually I'd probably buy Sun
Peaks, but if I can't buy Sun

1065
00:35:06,219 --> 00:35:08,382
Peaks, then I'd go to Silver Star.

1066
00:35:08,382 --> 00:35:10,231
I'm at big White right now.

1067
00:35:10,231 --> 00:35:13,533
Yeah, I'm not supporting that Big
White right now.

1068
00:35:13,633 --> 00:35:16,685
But Silver Star has Sovereign Lake
and stuff like that.

1069
00:35:16,585 --> 00:35:17,127
Exactly.

1070
00:35:17,127 --> 00:35:18,031
It's the better cross-country

1071
00:35:18,031 --> 00:35:18,152
trail.

1072
00:35:18,152 --> 00:35:19,779
I'm not supporting that Big White

1073
00:35:19,779 --> 00:35:20,214
right now.

1074
00:35:20,314 --> 00:35:22,286
But Silver Star has Sovereign Lake

1075
00:35:22,286 --> 00:35:23,452
and stuff like that.

1076
00:35:23,452 --> 00:35:23,581
Exactly.

1077
00:35:23,581 --> 00:35:24,876
It's the better cross-country
trail.

1078
00:35:24,876 --> 00:35:25,286
That's why.

1079
00:35:25,286 --> 00:35:26,146
I mean, yeah, Big White is lovely

1080
00:35:26,146 --> 00:35:28,339
for downhill skiing, but not so
good for Nordic.

1081
00:35:28,339 --> 00:35:30,549
So that's why I would have to pick
one.

1082
00:35:30,649 --> 00:35:31,031
why.

1083
00:35:30,931 --> 00:35:33,540
I mean, yeah, Big so In terms of

1084
00:35:33,540 --> 00:35:36,186
an investment, can we ask a favor
and pick your brain on that?

1085
00:35:36,186 --> 00:35:38,863
Or you can just tell me off air so
I don't have competition.

1086
00:35:38,863 --> 00:35:39,046
Yeah.

1087
00:35:39,046 --> 00:35:39,412
Okanagan investment.

1088
00:35:39,512 --> 00:35:40,448
I have questions.

1089
00:35:40,448 --> 00:35:41,790
I have been to Kelowna for a

1090
00:35:41,790 --> 00:35:42,034
while.

1091
00:35:42,034 --> 00:35:42,539
Fast growing place.

1092
00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:51,935
I think it grew by 4.3% last year,
the population.

1093
00:35:51,862 --> 00:35:52,600
So population growth drives real
estate.

1094
00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:54,098
If you want a lower maintenance
one, I take a look at, is there

1095
00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:56,285
any small bay industrial that
makes any sense in terms of its

1096
00:35:56,285 --> 00:35:57,401
location and its condition and the
renters?

1097
00:35:57,401 --> 00:36:00,040
That's probably an asset class I'd
take a look at as a small

1098
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:00,369
investment.

1099
00:36:00,369 --> 00:36:02,938
I'm not talking institutional, I'm

1100
00:36:02,938 --> 00:36:03,333
talking personally.

1101
00:36:03,333 --> 00:36:04,255
What would I look at?

1102
00:36:04,255 --> 00:36:07,070
I'd probably take a look at that.

1103
00:36:06,970 --> 00:36:07,583
Institutionally, we have three

1104
00:36:07,583 --> 00:36:09,217
shopping centers in Kelowna.

1105
00:36:09,217 --> 00:36:11,748
So we like that market as a place

1106
00:36:11,748 --> 00:36:13,751
for needs of life oriented retail,
again, population growing and

1107
00:36:13,751 --> 00:36:14,675
people need to shop.

1108
00:36:14,675 --> 00:36:15,035
Okay.

1109
00:36:15,035 --> 00:36:16,226
I love it.

1110
00:36:16,226 --> 00:36:16,578
Thanks.

1111
00:36:16,578 --> 00:36:18,015
I love it too.

1112
00:36:17,915 --> 00:36:20,692
All right, Wendy, if you could

1113
00:36:20,692 --> 00:36:23,733
give your 20 year old self any
advice, what would it be?

1114
00:36:23,733 --> 00:36:28,443
So my 20 year old self was in the
early 1990s and it was a tough

1115
00:36:28,443 --> 00:36:29,988
economic time in Canada.

1116
00:36:29,988 --> 00:36:32,518
It was a tough time in the world.

1117
00:36:32,518 --> 00:36:33,351
The Cold War had collapsed.

1118
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:35,007
No one knew what was happening.

1119
00:36:34,907 --> 00:36:36,033
There was a lot of uncertainty.

1120
00:36:36,133 --> 00:36:35,817
So I think it would be that all

1121
00:36:35,817 --> 00:36:38,714
this confusion, the world turns
around and goes on a pretty good

1122
00:36:38,702 --> 00:36:41,195
run after we get through the real
doldrums of the 1990s, as well as

1123
00:36:41,095 --> 00:36:41,571
Canada.

1124
00:36:41,571 --> 00:36:40,380
So it'd be to hang in there and

1125
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:41,571
just wait.

1126
00:36:41,571 --> 00:36:43,795
Things are going to get a lot

1127
00:36:43,795 --> 00:37:09,038
better for other people around the
world, for the economy, for

1128
00:37:09,019 --> 00:37:09,219
Canada.

1129
00:37:09,057 --> 00:37:09,448
So that's what I would say.

1130
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:09,604
Yeah, that's good advice.

1131
00:37:09,577 --> 00:37:09,790
I like that.

1132
00:37:09,620 --> 00:37:09,922
What is your favorite charity or
how do you get back?

1133
00:37:09,889 --> 00:37:10,600
With all the turmoil in all the
turmoil in the world, Doctors

1134
00:37:10,439 --> 00:37:10,860
Without Borders, Medecins Sans
Frontieres, so MSF.

1135
00:37:10,665 --> 00:37:11,221
And then locally, I usually get a
fair amount to the food bank.

1136
00:37:11,185 --> 00:37:11,826
And then we have a United Way
program through Canada Life to

1137
00:37:11,665 --> 00:37:11,732
donate off paychecks.

1138
00:37:11,691 --> 00:37:12,090
And I'm fairly generous with that

1139
00:37:11,942 --> 00:37:12,532
one and let them decide where it's
needed in the community.

1140
00:37:12,375 --> 00:37:12,781
All right, Wendy, how can Taylor
or I or our listener help you?

1141
00:37:12,757 --> 00:37:14,456
What can we do for you?
What can you do?

1142
00:37:14,456 --> 00:37:18,336
I think all the issues you can see
what I'm posting on LinkedIn.

1143
00:37:18,336 --> 00:37:19,011
Get involved.

1144
00:37:19,011 --> 00:37:19,549
We need more housing.

1145
00:37:19,542 --> 00:37:22,000
So how do you help your neighbors
understand we need more housing?

1146
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,582
That it's going to be good.

1147
00:37:23,582 --> 00:37:24,620
More neighbors, diverse neighbors.

1148
00:37:24,620 --> 00:37:25,106
It's all good.

1149
00:37:25,106 --> 00:37:26,378
And we need immigration.

1150
00:37:26,378 --> 00:37:27,919
there's a lot of anti-immigration
starting to come out.

1151
00:37:27,919 --> 00:37:30,362
But actually, if you look at
employment growth over the last, I

1152
00:37:30,362 --> 00:37:32,075
think, 20, 30 years, native
Canadian born people, like the

1153
00:37:32,075 --> 00:37:34,049
number of employed Canadian born
people has stayed flat.

1154
00:37:34,049 --> 00:37:35,356
It's all based on immigration.

1155
00:37:35,356 --> 00:37:36,569
So our economic growth, our

1156
00:37:36,569 --> 00:37:38,029
employment growth, everything we
can do in healthcare Canada,

1157
00:37:38,029 --> 00:37:39,255
everything workers, is coming from
immigration.

1158
00:37:39,355 --> 00:37:41,625
So our economic our growth,
employment everything growth, we

1159
00:37:41,525 --> 00:37:43,002
can do in Canada, healthcare
workers, everything is coming from

1160
00:37:43,002 --> 00:37:43,100
immigration.

1161
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:48,476
So don't be quick to blame

1162
00:37:48,476 --> 00:37:49,812
immigration on our housing
policies.

1163
00:37:49,712 --> 00:37:50,390
We need immigration.

1164
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:52,227
Our housing issue is from lack of

1165
00:37:52,227 --> 00:37:52,427
supply.

1166
00:37:52,408 --> 00:37:53,693
So I would encourage listeners to

1167
00:37:53,674 --> 00:37:55,279
keep that in mind.

1168
00:37:55,279 --> 00:37:55,673
Interesting.

1169
00:37:55,673 --> 00:37:51,956
So you think So you think the
immigration numbers we have right

1170
00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:54,360
now, you like them?
Are they too high or too low?

1171
00:37:54,820 --> 00:37:58,155
Obviously, we talked about some of
the challenges with non-permanent

1172
00:37:58,155 --> 00:37:58,418
residents.

1173
00:37:58,318 --> 00:38:00,262
And some of that is right idea not

1174
00:38:00,262 --> 00:38:00,892
being executed perfectly well.

1175
00:38:00,892 --> 00:38:02,472
So that needs to be fixed.

1176
00:38:02,472 --> 00:37:58,418
Obviously, students that are not
learning, that's a problem.

1177
00:37:58,318 --> 00:38:05,113
Any non-permanent residents, like
worker that's being exploited,

1178
00:38:05,013 --> 00:38:05,981
that's got to be dealt with.

1179
00:38:05,981 --> 00:38:07,480
But in terms of the permanent

1180
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,680
residents coming into Canada,
yeah, somewhere in the 400 to 500,

1181
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,720
which is, we're over 40 million in
Canada now.

1182
00:38:13,620 --> 00:38:16,574
So traditionally around 1% growth
from immigration has actually been

1183
00:38:16,574 --> 00:38:17,765
the norm.

1184
00:38:17,665 --> 00:38:19,296
And so a little above that, we

1185
00:38:19,396 --> 00:38:21,594
probably need to be there.

1186
00:38:21,594 --> 00:38:23,835
If you look at the retirees coming

1187
00:38:23,835 --> 00:38:26,805
up, the baby boomers are retiring
in a very big way and they're

1188
00:38:26,805 --> 00:38:27,315
getting older.

1189
00:38:27,315 --> 00:38:29,481
The top end of them are getting

1190
00:38:29,481 --> 00:38:32,736
older, going to need a lot more
healthcare at the end of your

1191
00:38:32,736 --> 00:38:33,002
life.

1192
00:38:33,002 --> 00:38:34,014
You need a lot more healthcare.

1193
00:38:34,014 --> 00:38:35,366
So I think the yeah, permanent
yes.

1194
00:38:35,366 --> 00:38:38,144
residence, Obviously making sure
we're especially inviting people

1195
00:38:38,144 --> 00:38:40,464
that have skills that we need,
whether to grow in construction,

1196
00:38:40,464 --> 00:38:43,400
you know, construction trades to
help grow our housing because we

1197
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,883
don't have enough people to build
the housing, but also where we

1198
00:38:46,983 --> 00:38:51,974
have big gaps in our needs and
healthcare would be one of them.

1199
00:38:52,070 --> 00:38:54,459
So, you know, as long as there's
some management of inviting people

1200
00:38:54,459 --> 00:38:56,680
in who we really need to help us
out in Canada.

1201
00:38:56,617 --> 00:38:57,577
in a a lot Awesome.

1202
00:38:57,577 --> 00:38:58,290
I like that.

1203
00:38:58,290 --> 00:39:00,745
If people do not follow you on
LinkedIn, definitely recommend it.

1204
00:39:00,745 --> 00:39:02,963
You put out some awesome content.

1205
00:39:02,963 --> 00:39:03,732
So I appreciate that.

1206
00:39:03,732 --> 00:39:05,440
Well, thank you so much for
joining us today.

1207
00:39:05,580 --> 00:39:06,973
And yeah, sorry, we were just
peppering you with questions.

1208
00:39:06,958 --> 00:39:09,205
We could have done four episodes
with you, but yeah.

1209
00:39:09,205 --> 00:39:10,646
Thanks a a lot.

1210
00:39:10,546 --> 00:39:10,737
Okay.

1211
00:39:10,737 --> 00:39:11,376
Thank you.

1212
00:39:11,376 --> 00:39:12,205
Thanks so much.

1213
00:39:12,205 --> 00:39:12,397
Appreciate it.

1214
00:39:12,397 --> 00:39:13,098
so much.

1215
00:39:13,098 --> 00:39:13,336
Appreciate