99: What the Next Year Holds for Kelowna Real Estate & Infrastructure with City of Kelowna's Ryan Smith

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Okay, welcome back to the Clone
Real Estate Podcast.

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I'm your mortgage broker host,
Taylor Atkinson.

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And I'm your real estate agent
host, Matt Glenn.

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What's happening, Taylor?
Hey, sun's out, man.

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Is it ever?
it ever?

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Went for a walk this morning.

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Freaking gorgeous, man.

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Yeah, it kind of started me
thinking about like, what's going

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to happen in the city?
You know, I know last summer, it

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was so sleepy with Airbnb and
economically, just people probably

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not traveling.

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Yeah, it'd be interesting to see

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what happens.

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But I mean, speaking about the

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city, our guest today.

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Ryan Smith, two -time guest.

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He's awesome to talk to.

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I love having Ryan on.

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Yeah, man.

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He's got to know like...

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All the inner secrets of.

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He doesn't just got to know it.

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doesn't just got to know it.

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He does know it.

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Yeah.

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You ask him the questions.

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He's just like on the ball.

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I love having him on as a guest.

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Yeah.

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So we had him on the day that

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Airbnb legislation was announced
that basically like provincial

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restrictions were coming out.

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And it was in a morning episode.

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So we only heard like an hour
before Ryan shows up.

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we only heard like an hour before
Ryan shows up.

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We didn't really have our ducks in
a row to ask him any questions.

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So that was kind of funny.

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kind of funny.

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Well, it was a great episode.

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Yeah.

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I mean, kudos to him.

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It was really nice for him just to

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be open and transparent and just,
you know, trying to talk about

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where we were at at that time.

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Because that was the day that the

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province announced.

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the province announced.

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It wasn't the city of Kelowna.

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It's not like his announcement.

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Yeah.

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We just had to deal with it like

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you're all of us.

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We just had to deal with it like

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you're all of us.

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So since then.

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The city has made more strict
guidelines than the province.

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And then they've just like
reversed those essentially this

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spring.

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You did say in this show, you

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know, potentially in a year from
now, we'll see what CMHC vacancy

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does.

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They'll have to kind of revisit it

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again.

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But I guess the takeaway there is,

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you know, the city of Kelowna
doesn't want this like up and down

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volatility of decisions, right?
Which is fair.

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He said that he's like, He said
that we don't want to yo -yo rules

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every year.

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Like how are you supposed to plan

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anything like that?
Yeah.

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But speaking of Airbnb stuff, so
our neighbors a little bit south

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in Penticton, they went to council
on April 1st for the property

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that's being built, Sokana.

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We've had people on for Sokana

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before.

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And I'm personally invested in

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Sokana.

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So this makes me kind of happy.

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They voted three to one in favor
of allowing it to be Airbnb or

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what they called is like a strata
hotel complex.

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So that's a huge positive.

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I mean, not just where I'm

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standing, but I think like.

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Just think of all the people that

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bought in there.

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You included the roller coaster.

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You buy in there, expect it to be
at Airbnb.

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They get shut down.

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Then you're like explaining to

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yourself and all the people that
bought in there like, oh, you're

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not going to build an Airbnb.

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The rental market's down.

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And now it's back on all this.

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Like you're on a roller coaster

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tied in where you can't do
anything, but just enjoy the ride.

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I love roller coasters.

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I do not love this ride.

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So phase one down there is a 96
unit complex.

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I think their argument to council
was like, hey, we did this as a

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performa that these were going to
be Airbnb allowable.

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And we sold them like that.

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And now we can't market it that

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way.

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And like, it just doesn't pencil

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anymore.

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So what do you want us to do with

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the project?
Anyways, it seems like city of

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Penticton is like.

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Yeah.

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Pushing behind in the right way.

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So hopefully we'll see that.

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When you look at that project,
When you look at that project,

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like it is in a perfect place to
be an Airbnb, like right at the

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center of Colonia, like the
channel there, right at the beach,

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right in the commercial district.

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It's kind of perfect for an Airbnb

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there.

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Yeah.

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Some of these just make sense.

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And there's a lot of those in

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Colonia as well.

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So hopefully we'll see that come

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out.

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we'll see out.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And what about inflation
announcement?

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Yeah, so 1 .7 inflation.

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That kind of caught me off guard.

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I was not expecting.

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It dropped a lot.

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Yeah.

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Kind of unexpected to see that.

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I guess with tariffs maybe not
having the effect yet, so

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inflation could go up again.

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Yeah, I feel like there's got to

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be a bit of a lag there, but we'll
see.

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Feels like we've been talking
about tariffs for months, though.

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I know.

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So like, could we see a drop in

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interest rates coming up maybe
sometime?

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I know.

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Yeah, I mean, I think we're still

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predicting like half a point rate
cut by the end of 2025.

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But again, like not to dive too
much into this, but the issue

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there is now lenders are like
shrinking their discount on prime.

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So does it change like borrowing
capacity or payments a lot?

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Not really.

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but it probably provides more

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optimism in the market.

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Yeah, it seems like it's a step in

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the right direction.

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Yeah.

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At least so.

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We want to get to the show.

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Awesome one with Ryan Smith, City
of Kelowna, and enjoy it, guys.

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Yeah.

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And this episode, like every

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episode, sponsored by Century 21
Assurance Realty, best brokerage

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in town.

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Our head office is in Kelowna, but

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we've got offices in Casagar,
Kamloops.

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We're around.

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So if you're an agent looking for

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a switch or a buyer or seller
looking for an agent, give us a

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shout.

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Enjoy the show.

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Okay, welcome back to the show.

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Ryan Smith, City of Kelowna.

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How's it going, man?
Great, guys.

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How are you?
Doing well.

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Glad to have you back.

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You're a fan favorite, for sure.

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Yeah, thanks for inviting me back.

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Fan favorite or like super villain

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over short -term rentals?
Fan favorite, I think.

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Although, yeah, I guess the short
-term rental thing does stick in

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people, but definitely a fan
favorite.

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You know what, though?
Love it or hate it, that was one

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of our most downloaded shows.

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So, you know, kudos to you.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that you
guys were probably...

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In terms of like who I'd talked to
publicly about that, probably like

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the first ones.

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And so, yeah.

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Well, it happened like that
morning.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So that was crazy.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So Taylor didn't have time to get

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all worked up about it before you
got there.

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So it doesn't take me long to get
worked up.

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So So doesn't take me long to get
worked up.

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Yeah.

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It wasn't the first one.

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There were many.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, So, I mean, speaking
about that, that was.

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what, just over a year ago now, I
guess, when we had our first

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recording with you.

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Do you want to give like a quick

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recap on where we're at with that
legislation?

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City's made some recent changes,
but...

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When the provincial legislation
came in, the provincial

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legislation came in, we took that
and we actually added another

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layer and made it even a little
bit stricter.

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And at the time we did that
because of the vacancy rate

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numbers that we were seeing in
Kelowna, which were at the time

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about less than a percent.

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It was like 0 .7 percent vacancy

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rate.

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And we said to council, look,

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there's a serious issue here and
it's having like lots of economic

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impacts on the community.

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And so that really limited to

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about, you know, 450 or 500, the
number of like existing licenses

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that could be used.

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We said at the time, we'll review

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it for next year.

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And we don't know, like there's

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lots of rental housing under
construction.

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This may be overkill.

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And by November of last year, when

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CMHC released the rental vacancy
rate early, we saw that it had

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jumped up about three and a half
percent.

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I think it was 3 .8, which was
where we were hoping it was going.

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And we thought, OK, that interim
measure of being extra strict was

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no longer necessary.

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And so we kept our word and that

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review and we went back to council
and said, hey, you know, the extra

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bit of Kelowna specific regulation
was overkill.

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Let's just align ourselves with
the province for now.

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And so that's where we sit now
aligned with the province.

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that's where we sit now aligned
with the province.

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I should point out that at the
time there was all sorts of.

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accusations about tourism being
down just because of the short

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-term rentals.

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I was going to ask you, like, what

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you thought brought that up.

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Well, we were like, okay, well,

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let's step back and take a look at
it.

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And is there a direct correlation?
And we couldn't find, like, a

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smoking gun of data saying, you
know, hotel vacancy and prices

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were up a little bit.

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So we went to destination tourism

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to get data on that.

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Yep.

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Destination BC, tourism data.

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We went to talk to Tourism

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Kelowna.

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You know, we were hearing from

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lots of businesses that tourism
was down.

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But there was also, you know,
fires the year before that, bad

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press over, you know, winery and
grape growing troubles and all

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these things that I think combine
for a perfect storm.

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So it wasn't any one thing, but
certainly I would say it's some

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level of contributing factor.

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There's probably eight or nine

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things that have an impact.

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And Kelowna is so complicated,

263
00:07:33,290 --> 00:07:37,750
like any city, that not just one
thing when you see something acute

264
00:07:37,950 --> 00:07:39,310
like that going on is to blame.

265
00:07:39,310 --> 00:07:41,680
So are you going to review this

266
00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,780
again next year or is this just
the way it is going to be?

267
00:07:45,780 --> 00:07:47,520
Yeah, really good segue.

268
00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,620
If our vacancy rate remains above

269
00:07:49,620 --> 00:07:51,900
3%, when CMHC reports it again
next year, our council could

270
00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:54,420
choose to opt out of the
province's regulations.

271
00:07:54,420 --> 00:07:55,480
So they'll have that opportunity.

272
00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,600
So they can do a resolution and

273
00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:58,640
send that to the province.

274
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,720
That would be for like condos like

275
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,080
Aqua and stuff like that.

276
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,160
Yeah, Yeah, that'd be Aqua, you

277
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,020
know, all the buildings.

278
00:08:04,020 --> 00:08:05,460
Playa del Sol and stuff like that.

279
00:08:05,460 --> 00:08:07,400
Yeah, in any building, Playa del
Sol and stuff like that.

280
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,210
Yeah, in any building, certainly
we could open it back wide open

281
00:08:10,210 --> 00:08:11,730
for short -term rentals.

282
00:08:11,730 --> 00:08:15,250
What would that... look like i

283
00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:19,530
don't exactly know but if that
vacancy rate remains above three

284
00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:23,390
percent which given the number of
rental housing units still under

285
00:08:23,390 --> 00:08:25,350
construction and occupying like
almost every week another rental

286
00:08:25,350 --> 00:08:27,530
building is occupying right now
yeah i'd say there's a pretty good

287
00:08:27,530 --> 00:08:30,870
chance that it's going to be above
three percent so we'll report back

288
00:08:31,290 --> 00:08:33,330
to council it'll probably be like
a january -ish report january

289
00:08:33,330 --> 00:08:33,270
february and have a discussion
with council about Where do they

290
00:08:33,270 --> 00:08:35,070
want to go with this?
Do they want to opt out?

291
00:08:35,070 --> 00:08:37,370
If so, do they want to opt out
with any special roles?

292
00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:38,309
What's the city staff
recommendation?

293
00:08:38,309 --> 00:08:42,669
And what we don't want to end up
in is a situation, though, where

294
00:08:42,669 --> 00:08:44,590
we allow it and then.

295
00:08:44,590 --> 00:08:46,710
Two years after that, we're going

296
00:08:46,710 --> 00:08:49,350
back the other way again.

297
00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:50,750
You're yo -yoing with relations.

298
00:08:50,750 --> 00:08:52,890
And everybody who's making, like,
you guys are making, like, but

299
00:08:52,890 --> 00:08:55,370
your clients, you guys are making
real estate decisions about this.

300
00:08:55,370 --> 00:08:57,510
It's like, how do you do business
in that atmosphere?

301
00:08:57,510 --> 00:09:02,330
So there needs to be some
consistency.

302
00:09:02,330 --> 00:09:02,670
over time.

303
00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:04,680
And that's what we recommend to

304
00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:04,760
council.

305
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:05,640
If we're going to remove some

306
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,880
restrictions, maybe there's a bit
of a hybrid where some of those

307
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,080
investor properties, maybe we open
some of those up.

308
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,100
Like that's, I think some of the
things we'll think about and talk

309
00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:15,920
to the provincial government about
too.

310
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,910
Those things that's going to dog
us for a few years, for sure.

311
00:09:20,910 --> 00:09:21,230
with relations.

312
00:09:21,230 --> 00:09:21,670
And Yeah.

313
00:09:21,890 --> 00:09:25,150
I mean, in terms of, I guess.

314
00:09:25,150 --> 00:09:27,270
Do we want to like jump right into

315
00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:28,470
kind of development and building
stats?

316
00:09:28,470 --> 00:09:30,910
Like, you know, it's pretty
interesting right now, but maybe

317
00:09:30,930 --> 00:09:33,610
you have obviously the data that
we'd love to kind of dissect.

318
00:09:33,610 --> 00:09:37,010
What's going on in terms of
building applications and stuff

319
00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:39,410
like that in the city?
How are you guys looking?

320
00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:42,210
If you drive around Kelowna right
now, you drive around Kelowna

321
00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:44,550
right now, there's cranes
everywhere, construction going on

322
00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:44,810
everywhere.

323
00:09:44,810 --> 00:09:46,310
And you're like, we're in a boom.

324
00:09:46,310 --> 00:09:47,250
Like we don't have a problem with
housing.

325
00:09:47,250 --> 00:09:49,810
And maybe right this second, we
don't have a problem with housing.

326
00:09:49,810 --> 00:09:51,290
But we take a long view approach
to housing.

327
00:09:51,290 --> 00:09:53,010
And there's a lot of rental
housing under construction because

328
00:09:53,170 --> 00:09:56,260
we had a lot of incentives in
place between us, the provincial

329
00:09:56,260 --> 00:09:57,140
government and federal government.

330
00:09:57,140 --> 00:09:57,680
Yes.

331
00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:59,000
To help that happen.

332
00:09:59,220 --> 00:10:00,900
What you don't see a lot of is

333
00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:02,180
market condos under construction.

334
00:10:02,180 --> 00:10:03,520
You've got the Aqua being built.

335
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:04,360
You've got Movala.

336
00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:05,140
Yes.

337
00:10:05,140 --> 00:10:07,600
To help The ones that started a
long time ago.

338
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:08,560
But they started a long time ago.

339
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:08,800
Yeah, yeah.

340
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,140
And what we haven't seen, though,
is anything new permitted that's

341
00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:13,860
going into construction that'll be
done three years from now.

342
00:10:13,860 --> 00:10:14,940
Yeah, yeah.

343
00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:16,780
that's going into construction

344
00:10:16,780 --> 00:10:17,880
that'll be done three years from
now.

345
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,040
You're expecting maybe a bit of a
shortfall?

346
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:21,260
Yeah.

347
00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:21,860
So, Yeah.

348
00:10:22,060 --> 00:10:26,420
So, I mean, we could end up in a
situation where, you know, the

349
00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:32,360
rental vacancy rate pops up to,
you know, 5%, 6%, 7 % for a year

350
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:32,880
or two.

351
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:33,080
Yeah.

352
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,180
But the problem is with no new
market housing.

353
00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:38,140
being built, multifamily market
housing, or very little.

354
00:10:38,140 --> 00:10:41,820
And like two or three years from
now, all that extra rental stock

355
00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:38,060
starts to get sucked up by people
who can't find housing to buy on

356
00:10:38,060 --> 00:10:46,280
the market side.

357
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,980
And then you've got another two or

358
00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:50,220
three year, four year construction
cycle for stuff to get.

359
00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:51,560
permitted to get under
construction.

360
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,400
So it could be like a volatile
next few years.

361
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:55,900
And so we're seeing all of these
buildings occupy, but not when I

362
00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:56,860
look at it.

363
00:10:56,860 --> 00:10:58,120
And we've got a housing dashboard

364
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,480
online that's available to the
public if you search our website.

365
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,640
And you can really see the story
of what's going on.

366
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,940
2022, 2023, lots of building
permits, fewer occupancies.

367
00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:08,440
And then 2024, 2025, lots of
occupancies, so far building

368
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,280
occupancies, not a lot of building
permits and new building permits.

369
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,200
Some projects like market condo
projects come back to be re

370
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,340
-permitted because through the
planning process, development

371
00:11:18,340 --> 00:11:22,280
permits only good for two years
unless they get a foundation in

372
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:22,540
the ground.

373
00:11:22,540 --> 00:11:24,540
So there was one that we did in

374
00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:24,980
February on Clement.

375
00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:27,100
There's another one next Tuesday

376
00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:30,620
night on Ellis Street, a big four
tower, a thousand unit Lettingham

377
00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:31,180
McAllister proposal.

378
00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:33,090
And they get another two years.

379
00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:35,550
And hopefully in that two years,
they can start.

380
00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:39,010
Other than that, there's like,
we'll see a few more of those.

381
00:11:39,010 --> 00:11:41,970
There's not a lot compared to how
much housing we need a year.

382
00:11:41,970 --> 00:11:45,510
Our housing needs assessment says
between like 1 ,650 and 2 ,600 new

383
00:11:45,510 --> 00:11:46,630
units a year.

384
00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:47,570
And these years, we're certainly

385
00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:48,970
not going to hit it.

386
00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:52,270
And I keep telling council this in

387
00:11:52,670 --> 00:11:57,550
years, you know, probably late
2026 to 2029 is what I'm worried

388
00:11:57,650 --> 00:11:57,830
about.

389
00:11:57,830 --> 00:11:57,990
Interesting.

390
00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:59,850
So it's funny because we need more
housing.

391
00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:03,460
You can see it laying out pretty
well right now.

392
00:12:03,460 --> 00:12:07,160
But if the numbers don't pencil,
the numbers don't pencil.

393
00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:10,100
So how do we get ourselves over
that hurdle?

394
00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:12,540
What do you think could happen?
Yeah, and that's a challenging

395
00:12:12,540 --> 00:12:16,180
thing in a time like this where
there's all this construction

396
00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:17,060
going on.

397
00:12:17,060 --> 00:12:19,360
Yeah, and that's a challenging

398
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,680
thing in a time like this where
there's all this construction

399
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:24,180
going on.

400
00:12:24,180 --> 00:12:25,640
And everybody looks at that again

401
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,340
and says, why would we give
development incentives?

402
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,460
And just to get something going
that's new doesn't pencil, like

403
00:12:29,460 --> 00:12:29,760
you said.

404
00:12:29,860 --> 00:12:30,800
And there's probably a thousand

405
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,440
reasons why these things aren't
penciling right now.

406
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,520
And you've got building code
changes, financing changes at the

407
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,080
CMHC level that have happened in
lots of municipalities, like

408
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,660
constant zoning changes,
development cost charges that keep

409
00:12:40,660 --> 00:12:41,040
going up.

410
00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:42,420
All of these things are really,

411
00:12:42,420 --> 00:12:42,940
really challenging.

412
00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:44,420
Maybe those would be

413
00:12:44,420 --> 00:12:48,420
controversial, but what is with
all the building code changes?

414
00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,540
It just gets more and more
expensive by the second, it seems.

415
00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:53,780
If you applied for your permit six
months ago, you have different

416
00:12:53,780 --> 00:12:55,440
building codes than you do now,
and it's just...

417
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,900
Do they not realize that we need
more housing and it just makes it

418
00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,000
way harder?
Everybody has a different

419
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,920
priority, has a different
priority, but it's the most

420
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:01,160
important priority.

421
00:13:01,160 --> 00:12:58,580
I think governments have a problem

422
00:12:58,580 --> 00:13:01,040
really like sifting through that
and saying, no, these two or three

423
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,480
things are the most important
things.

424
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,780
And we're going to focus on
supporting these.

425
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,700
And those other things are not
priorities.

426
00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:10,320
And so with building code, all
sorts of things have become a

427
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,260
priority at the same time with
building code.

428
00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:15,480
And it's just layering and
layering and layering.

429
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,370
We're doing like energy
efficiency.

430
00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:18,690
We're doing accessibility.

431
00:13:19,070 --> 00:13:21,130
We're doing the structural side in

432
00:13:21,130 --> 00:13:22,830
terms of making buildings
earthquake resilient.

433
00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:24,750
And that's just the building code.

434
00:13:24,890 --> 00:13:26,430
And not to mention, like, you

435
00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:29,350
know, Citi adds in electric
vehicle charging requirements and

436
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:31,350
then, you know, X, Y and Z above
that.

437
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:33,830
And I'd say Kelowna is probably
better than many others at

438
00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:34,150
prioritizing.

439
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:34,970
But still, I think that.

440
00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:37,850
And Governments need to start
having a look at themselves and

441
00:13:37,850 --> 00:13:39,290
saying, you know, what is the
priority here?

442
00:13:39,290 --> 00:13:40,590
I said it on LinkedIn last week.

443
00:13:40,890 --> 00:13:41,830
When everything's a priority,

444
00:13:41,830 --> 00:13:42,810
nothing's a priority out there.

445
00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:43,190
No, exactly.

446
00:13:43,190 --> 00:13:45,750
How do you figure out what the
most important things are?

447
00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:48,890
And if we're in a housing crisis,
where are the 18 other things a

448
00:13:48,890 --> 00:13:51,310
priority as well?
So I guess like as a municipality

449
00:13:51,310 --> 00:13:54,010
that gives feedback to the
province, what is kind of the one

450
00:13:54,010 --> 00:13:58,090
priority that you're saying, hey,
this has to happen at our level,

451
00:13:58,090 --> 00:14:03,110
like for the city of Kelowna to be
able to get to the state that we

452
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:04,590
need to?
Because there are like so many

453
00:14:04,590 --> 00:14:04,730
things.

454
00:14:04,730 --> 00:14:05,510
working against us, right?

455
00:14:05,510 --> 00:14:09,550
Like tariffs come in and it's
like, well, how do we know the

456
00:14:09,550 --> 00:14:13,800
cost of the next building when
everything might go up 25 %?

457
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,360
So yeah, focus our feedback to
things that are within our

458
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:17,660
control.

459
00:14:17,660 --> 00:14:19,700
And like we could talk either like

460
00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:23,880
development cost charges and like
probably our biggest feedback to

461
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,120
the province is on the electrical
side of things.

462
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,920
And that's a challenge at a bunch
of different levels, like the

463
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,100
local infill housing level.

464
00:13:57,450 --> 00:14:34,060
And there's like whole areas that

465
00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:34,380
are challenges.

466
00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:35,480
And then there's the overall like,

467
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,740
what does our city look like in
the future?

468
00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:40,220
And how is power impacting that?
Because there's a discussion to be

469
00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:41,220
had there, too.

470
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:41,540
Yeah.

471
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,000
So I think I originally reached
out to you a few months ago

472
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,540
because we had some like pretty
outrageous headlines, basically.

473
00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:47,700
saying, you know, a Fortis
infrastructure is not going to

474
00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:50,360
fulfill the building needs for
developers, potentially as late as

475
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:50,920
like 2029.

476
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,660
Where are we at with that?

477
00:14:52,660 --> 00:14:54,840
Like, it kind of seemed like it
came out.

478
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,060
I saw a bunch of these headlines
and then it just stopped recently.

479
00:14:58,060 --> 00:14:59,700
But yeah, I guess what's the issue
there?

480
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:01,980
know, Fortis approached us about
18, 20 months ago and said, hey,

481
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,100
look, in a couple areas of the
city, our substations are running

482
00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:04,680
out of capacity.

483
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:05,980
and particularly one in the north

484
00:15:05,980 --> 00:15:08,360
end of downtown and then one on
Richter Street on Saucier.

485
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,240
The Saucier one was the most
immediate, but they do long -term

486
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:12,260
capital planning.

487
00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:13,880
But the problem was is that their

488
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,380
delivery time on equipment is
three to four years.

489
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:18,860
And so they're ordering a capital
plan, got out of sync with our

490
00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:22,260
growth management side of things
and how we are planning and like

491
00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:26,500
what's going to happen when in
terms of development and where and

492
00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:27,960
wasn't lining up that well.

493
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,800
And so we ended up with challenges

494
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,520
in those two particular areas
first.

495
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,780
And there's a few other areas with
more minor challenges.

496
00:15:33,780 --> 00:15:37,400
So we've been meeting to figure
out how we deal with projects that

497
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,300
are going ahead in those areas.

498
00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:39,840
And we created an earlier review

499
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,760
and warning process for
developers.

500
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,920
And then we've been also working
case by case or developers have

501
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,260
with Fortis to try and change the
energy load that buildings are

502
00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:51,900
creating to lessen it so that
potentially they can still be

503
00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:53,060
energized in those areas as well.

504
00:15:53,060 --> 00:15:53,800
We're working with Fortis.

505
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,360
They need to actually expand or
twin the recreation substation,

506
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:57,420
which is right near Redbird.

507
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:58,960
I always relate everything to

508
00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,880
breweries.

509
00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:00,500
Yeah.

510
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:01,120
We're that age.

511
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,800
We're like, everyone's made it.

512
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,980
Yeah, we just do exactly where
that was.

513
00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:05,560
Yeah.

514
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,890
So in that area, we need another

515
00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:10,070
substation.

516
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:10,190
Yeah.

517
00:16:10,190 --> 00:16:12,010
But it lands at a premium.

518
00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:13,630
So it's challenging to find

519
00:16:13,630 --> 00:16:16,290
something in that area, trying to
figure it out.

520
00:16:16,290 --> 00:16:18,970
It's not like a short -term
solution for either one of those.

521
00:16:18,970 --> 00:16:24,030
But I would say we're making you
nothing hasn't been able to be

522
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,280
built yet that's sort of been
permitted because of those

523
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:27,400
challenges.

524
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,000
But we may still run into that at

525
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:30,400
some point.

526
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,680
The thing we're also working on is

527
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,120
in a lot of our alleys in the
central city, there's overhead, my

528
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,040
power pole Fortis infrastructure.

529
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,360
But with the amount of infill

530
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,960
housing happening, a lot of
pressure is being put on that.

531
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:42,980
And the locations of those poles
sometimes prevents housing and

532
00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:44,800
infill housing or carrot houses.

533
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,000
And so we're going to try and work

534
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,860
with Fortis on what the future of
those alleyways looks like and

535
00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:54,580
that infrastructure, because we
can't have individual projects.

536
00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:58,160
Like if you're building a four
unit building and you get hit with

537
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,600
like an $80 ,000 power bill,
that's not sustainable in a

538
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,020
project.

539
00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:03,620
That's never going to work.

540
00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:04,960
And how can Kelowna strategically
get involved?

541
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:05,480
to help.

542
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,420
We already do laneway

543
00:17:06,420 --> 00:17:09,720
improvements, but maybe we need to
coordinate those better with

544
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,900
Fortis so that power goes
underground and new transformers

545
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:13,500
go underground.

546
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:20,260
There's ways we can deal with

547
00:17:20,260 --> 00:17:22,200
that, so we're trying to figure
that out.

548
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,160
not Because that can affect a
property.

549
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,160
I've been personally involved in a
few of these where you have a pool

550
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,120
that's in a bad spot in the alley.

551
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,000
That property that would be a

552
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,080
prime development lot is all of a
sudden basically not saleable.

553
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,900
It's kind of a crazy situation.

554
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,560
So oftentimes, oftentimes, like if

555
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,780
that property does move
infrastructure around, they front

556
00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:40,780
end the cost for that.

557
00:17:40,780 --> 00:17:41,960
But there's no recovery mechanism.

558
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,700
Anybody else that gets to take
advantage of that doesn't pay into

559
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:45,580
it afterwards.

560
00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:45,920
No, exactly.

561
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:46,440
That's right.

562
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:47,200
The model needs to evolve and

563
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:52,400
improve so that if other people
are getting in a benefit, model

564
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,580
needs to evolve and improve so
that if other people are getting

565
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:57,780
in a benefit, everybody pays their
fair share.

566
00:17:57,780 --> 00:18:03,040
And then that way the cost gets
reduced for everybody too.

567
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,220
We all agree that infrastructure
in a growing city needs to evolve

568
00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:10,360
and be improved, but it's just how
you allocate the costs.

569
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:13,300
Also, it just wouldn't look way
nicer and around.

570
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:14,760
So I think that's...

571
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:15,800
Oh yeah, Oh yeah, totally.

572
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:15,940
Yeah.

573
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:16,140
Yeah.

574
00:18:16,140 --> 00:18:18,140
I mean, honestly, probably not
a... bad problem to have.

575
00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:22,060
Like if you're growing as a city,
these are the things that you're

576
00:18:22,060 --> 00:18:23,180
going to come upon.

577
00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:27,190
I guess maybe a bit of a segue

578
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:27,870
into like DCCs.

579
00:18:27,870 --> 00:18:29,890
So first of all, I guess two -part

580
00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:32,210
question, like can you expand on
what DCCs go to?

581
00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:36,110
And the second part would be, are
you looking at tweaking some of

582
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:36,670
those to incorporate some of
these?

583
00:18:36,670 --> 00:18:39,570
So like one owner doesn't have the
onus of that $80 ,000 bill and

584
00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:40,510
then everyone else gets it.

585
00:18:40,510 --> 00:18:42,110
Like, is there a way to

586
00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:42,910
restructure that so it's more
beneficial?

587
00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:45,190
DCCs are actually like a kind of a
higher order tool.

588
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:46,730
And so I'll explain that a little
bit.

589
00:18:46,730 --> 00:18:50,420
There's sewer, water, road, park,
storm drainage projects that are

590
00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:54,920
like either whole neighborhood or
sector of the city related or

591
00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:56,380
whole city related.

592
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:57,520
Say we wanted to four lane Richter

593
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,560
Street in the future.

594
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:00,300
That's something that benefits

595
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:01,780
like a large area of the city.

596
00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:03,680
So we use the DCC program.

597
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,460
So many new units pay a share
towards that.

598
00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:03,960
Plus there's an amount built into
that DCC charge for.

599
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,880
existing users that are benefiting
from that as well so when that

600
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,940
road actually gets built maybe 50
or 60 of that road the need for

601
00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:14,220
that was related to new growth And
then 40 % is paid by existing

602
00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:15,240
users, which would come from
taxation.

603
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,900
But maybe we also, to bring down
the cost, want to subsidize that

604
00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,380
even a little more and we call
that an assist factor.

605
00:19:20,380 --> 00:19:24,460
What we do is when we update our
community plan, it's every five to

606
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,710
10 years, we'll do an update to
the DCC program.

607
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:28,910
And the DCC program, then we say,
here's the major projects that are

608
00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:31,470
funded by DCCs and figure out for
each project how much funding is

609
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:31,610
required.

610
00:19:31,610 --> 00:19:34,230
And do we need to buy land or will

611
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:37,130
developers give us some of the
land because land along that, you

612
00:19:37,130 --> 00:19:38,630
know, maybe it's a corridor, we'll
get redeveloped.

613
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:41,610
You figure all that out to the
best of our ability and then

614
00:19:41,610 --> 00:19:43,810
review with the home builders and
the Urban Development Institute

615
00:19:43,810 --> 00:19:46,670
and go through almost like line by
line, haggle over the cost of it.

616
00:19:46,670 --> 00:19:49,430
Sometimes to make the program more
affordable, projects need to come

617
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:50,530
out of it.

618
00:19:50,530 --> 00:19:51,470
It's funny that everyone says

619
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:55,340
there's no transparency to it, but
I sat in 15 meetings before the

620
00:19:55,580 --> 00:20:01,140
last update where we talked about,
you know, meetings before the last

621
00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:05,180
update where we talked about, you
know, oh, well, there's a material

622
00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:07,880
cost in this road project that I
think is unreasonable.

623
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,220
Why is it there?
What's behind it?

624
00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:12,560
And we have to explain that to the
development community.

625
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,400
So from that perspective, I would
say there's transparency.

626
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,500
But if you're out there in the
community, you hear the term DCC

627
00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:22,100
and people complaining about it.

628
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,440
It's a tough one to sort of wrap

629
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:25,120
your head around.

630
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,760
That's a really like simple DCC.

631
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,720
The whole development industry is
basically paying towards specific

632
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:30,480
global community projects.

633
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,400
Good example of that would be the

634
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,800
Hart Park that opened last
weekend.

635
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,920
A portion of that was built using
development cost charge park

636
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:38,360
construction money.

637
00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:40,020
And we would be able to say, if

638
00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:42,500
you said, oh, well, how much?
development money went into that,

639
00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,680
our team could say, oh, well, the
amount of new units that were

640
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,900
happening in this neighborhood, we
charged them this amount or this

641
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:53,560
amount was contributed to that and
taxation, which was like the

642
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,720
existing area residents who
benefit paid X amount towards it

643
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:57,460
as well.

644
00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:00,940
So it'd be great if there was

645
00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:03,160
actually like a really transparent
way to see that.

646
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,760
And that's one of the problems.

647
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,280
Like there's a lot of smart

648
00:21:06,420 --> 00:21:08,980
accountants and engineers who work
on it behind the scenes.

649
00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:11,940
If we did like a video every year
that explained like, here's where

650
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:15,780
your DCCs went this year, there'd
probably be better buy -in from

651
00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:16,640
the development community too.

652
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,820
Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone

653
00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:21,740
can really dispute that it's not
being spent in good.

654
00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:25,080
projects like i mean i was just at
the heart park a couple days ago

655
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:30,560
with the kids it's amazing you
know so i think when we had you on

656
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:30,560
last show you know you said
something along the lines of we're

657
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,620
kind of shooting yourself in the
foot in terms of it's becoming a

658
00:21:34,620 --> 00:21:37,440
very expensive city but it's
because we're reinvesting in these

659
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,540
amazing amenities and that's just
like a perfect example of it you

660
00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:42,180
allocate those dcc fees where you
want and you're never going to

661
00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:44,300
make everyone happy not just make
people happy but but Keeping

662
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,780
people informed, like are people
really going to want to watch the

663
00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:49,480
accountant bringing down the
numbers or even a video of that?

664
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,120
I mean, I mean, I think when you
show where it's going and how

665
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,880
much, who's paying for what,
that's kind of interesting.

666
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,140
how But yeah, like the line by
line stuff, yeah, is a little bit

667
00:22:02,140 --> 00:22:02,320
boring.

668
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,200
And it's actually an interesting

669
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,780
time though with DCCs.

670
00:22:06,340 --> 00:22:07,960
I find it interesting, but I'm a

671
00:22:08,020 --> 00:22:08,700
nerd, so maybe not so much.

672
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:10,500
So in the new liberal government's

673
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,300
housing platform, and I'm assuming
that they're going to be acting on

674
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:13,440
this.

675
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,220
They had a commitment to cut DCCs

676
00:22:15,220 --> 00:22:15,720
in half.

677
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,700
Does that have anything to do with

678
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:19,760
them?
How do they do that?

679
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,600
We're going to see, going to see,
I guess.

680
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,680
What's your opinion on that?
Are they just going to pay the

681
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,400
other half?
They said that for the half that

682
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,630
we're not collecting, they will
reimburse with a formula.

683
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:31,310
But I think that that formula
means that we only recover about

684
00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:32,350
half of what we're giving up.

685
00:22:32,530 --> 00:22:34,070
So we're still missing about 25 %

686
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:34,590
of that.

687
00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:35,850
So that certainly impacts the

688
00:22:35,850 --> 00:22:36,430
community.

689
00:22:36,430 --> 00:22:38,270
Hopefully there's some room there

690
00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:40,230
as the implementation happens on
that to figure this out.

691
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:43,590
I mean, I think, again, if housing
is the priority and that's one of

692
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:47,100
the tools that we have to help
ease the crunch for developers and

693
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:47,980
home builders, that's fine.

694
00:22:47,980 --> 00:22:48,900
But we hear from the community

695
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:50,980
constantly here in Kelowna that
you're not building enough

696
00:22:50,980 --> 00:22:51,440
infrastructure fast enough.

697
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,500
And so then if we're not funding

698
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:55,660
it properly, that makes it even
truer than it is today.

699
00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:59,240
And I mean, I think where we get
behind is times like COVID where,

700
00:22:59,240 --> 00:22:59,580
you know.

701
00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:01,180
Prices went through the roof.

702
00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:03,880
Things were so unpredictable that
we were really unproductive in our

703
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,080
infrastructure delivery programs
for a few years while we were

704
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:07,900
still building housing.

705
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:09,340
But we couldn't predict, you know,

706
00:23:09,340 --> 00:23:12,720
some of those costs were insane
or, you know, we just weren't sure

707
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,480
whether or not we could create a
project.

708
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,440
And we've wrapped that up again
this year, next year, the year

709
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,020
after, and you see way more
infrastructure built.

710
00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:20,060
And driving around right now, you
can already see that in the

711
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:20,360
community.

712
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:21,820
So hopefully, we hopefully, yeah,

713
00:23:21,820 --> 00:23:24,760
we're made as whole as possible on
that so that the community and the

714
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,960
infrastructure side of things that
people.

715
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,000
think less about doesn't suffer.

716
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,100
What excites you about the new

717
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:33,520
liberal government policies for
housing at our municipal level or

718
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:34,000
provincial level?
Yeah.

719
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,060
Are there any policies that have
come out that you're like, I

720
00:23:38,060 --> 00:23:41,950
actually think they're going to
really hit this one out of the

721
00:23:41,950 --> 00:23:42,950
park and follow through with it.

722
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:43,550
And like, we're excited to

723
00:23:43,550 --> 00:23:44,230
implement it as a city.

724
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:44,450
It'll be interesting to see.

725
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:47,690
They talked about like Canada
builds program or build Canada

726
00:23:47,690 --> 00:23:47,850
program.

727
00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:48,410
Like the modular housing thing.

728
00:23:48,410 --> 00:23:49,590
Well, actually, yeah, there's two
things.

729
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:50,990
If the federal government gets
involved.

730
00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:56,190
In housing, I don't think they
should do it to compete with

731
00:23:56,190 --> 00:23:57,950
developers in any way, shape or
form.

732
00:23:57,950 --> 00:24:01,870
I think the development industry
can serve the top two thirds of

733
00:24:01,870 --> 00:24:03,550
the people of Canada quite well.

734
00:24:03,730 --> 00:24:07,770
But where I think it's failing is

735
00:24:07,770 --> 00:24:10,490
the very affordable housing out
there and like shelters and

736
00:24:10,490 --> 00:24:12,370
helping those out that have like
mental health and addiction

737
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:13,690
issues, like housing and treatment
for that.

738
00:24:13,690 --> 00:24:16,390
So if Canada is going to get
involved federally, that's the

739
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:16,990
spot for it.

740
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:20,090
So I'd be excited to see them and

741
00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:20,810
very involved.

742
00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:22,930
And it seemed like that's what the

743
00:24:22,930 --> 00:24:24,350
campaign platform said.

744
00:24:24,350 --> 00:24:27,530
And then the other part of it is,

745
00:24:27,530 --> 00:24:30,330
yeah, the modular prefabricated
side of things and seeing the

746
00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:32,190
federal government help the SRIs
of our region could produce for

747
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:34,810
years on end at full capacity,
knowing that, for instance, the

748
00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:36,980
government might buy off their
excess supply.

749
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:39,340
Then they could borrow for
improvements and technology

750
00:24:39,340 --> 00:24:42,300
upgrades and expansions and not
have to worry about market cycles

751
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:43,680
because that's what kills those
plants now.

752
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,760
You know, they ramp up and then
they have to lay everybody off and

753
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,860
then they ramp up again and it
just kills production.

754
00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:51,820
So if they can produce at a higher
level long term in the region and

755
00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:53,300
the ones that get bought off by
the government become affordable

756
00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:55,100
housing supply, I think everybody
wins.

757
00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:57,300
Places like that are where the
government should be involved, the

758
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:59,780
de -risking and not in competition
with development.

759
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:00,880
not competition with development.

760
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:01,860
I like that.

761
00:25:01,860 --> 00:25:02,600
That's a good point.

762
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,180
I feel like the modular housing

763
00:25:04,180 --> 00:25:08,160
and the infill that we're going to
be having in Kelowna, like it's

764
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,420
like a match made in heaven.

765
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:13,440
It just feels like the two are

766
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:14,720
just made for each other.

767
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:15,680
Because the modular houses are

768
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,380
super nice places, right?
They're not like mobile home

769
00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:17,540
parks.

770
00:25:17,540 --> 00:25:18,520
They're like real houses.

771
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,000
And they're very nice.

772
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:19,920
Nothing wrong with mobile homes

773
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:20,140
either, man.

774
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,540
Nothing wrong with mobile homes.

775
00:25:21,540 --> 00:25:24,560
But like I'm just saying downtown
is not going to turn into a mobile

776
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,380
home park.

777
00:25:25,380 --> 00:25:27,080
Like they're very nice places.

778
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,000
Well, in the assembly, I was like,
once you've built a foundation and

779
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,990
like with the plumbing, you could
drop like four units onto that.

780
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:36,090
in a day yeah exactly yes you know
be ready to like putting on the

781
00:25:36,090 --> 00:25:39,450
outside finishing and like those
are quick projects if the

782
00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:42,680
inventory is available yeah and
like from a technology perspective

783
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,400
one of the other things that gets
me excited is i mean maybe you're

784
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,940
selling a property buyer's agent
comes and says like well what can

785
00:25:51,940 --> 00:25:55,440
we do with this and you can say
well check out the city's website

786
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,860
it'll walk you through what you
can put there yeah then you can

787
00:25:58,860 --> 00:26:00,820
figure out okay well that's
eligible for four and it will

788
00:26:00,820 --> 00:26:03,820
suggest yes know be ready to like
putting on the outside finishing

789
00:26:03,820 --> 00:26:07,600
and like those are quick projects
if the inventory is available yeah

790
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,660
and like from a technology
perspective one of the other

791
00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:15,460
things that gets me excited is i
mean maybe you're selling a

792
00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:19,340
property buyer's agent comes and
says like well what can we do with

793
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:25,280
this and you can say well check
out the city's website it'll walk

794
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,680
you through what you can put there
yeah then you can figure out okay

795
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,620
well that's eligible for four and
it will suggest prefab designs

796
00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:34,500
from a bunch of different prefab
builders or designs that are maybe

797
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:37,700
non -prefab too, that will fit on
that property and then say, okay,

798
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:40,460
well, if you want it to go prefab,
here's the time it would take to

799
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:41,140
fulfill your order.

800
00:26:41,140 --> 00:26:44,080
Or if you wanted to use a regular

801
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,040
builder, here's three builders
that are ready to go in the next

802
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,780
six months and could start.

803
00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:49,120
And that might involve some

804
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,420
collaboration with the Canadian
home builders locally.

805
00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:52,500
And they've got like a great, well
-organized chapter here.

806
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:54,520
And, you know, if they could drive
business and juggle clients based

807
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:54,820
on that.

808
00:26:54,820 --> 00:26:56,020
I mean, it's funny, I sort of

809
00:26:56,020 --> 00:26:57,720
supervise the construction of the
growth of the community.

810
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,420
But if I had to go build my own
place and I didn't have some of

811
00:27:01,420 --> 00:27:02,820
the context that I have right now.

812
00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:04,140
Where do you start?

813
00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:06,240
Who do you use?
How long is it going to take?

814
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,520
Like most people have no idea if
you're not in the industry.

815
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,080
I have right now.

816
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:09,820
Where do you start?

817
00:27:09,820 --> 00:27:12,100
Who do you use?
Even meeting someone like Taylor

818
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:15,180
to finance it, like talk to
Taylor, just all these different

819
00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:15,300
options.

820
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:15,960
I agree.

821
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,110
Go to one place and you just have
all these options.

822
00:27:20,110 --> 00:27:22,830
It would just like streamline the
process.

823
00:27:22,830 --> 00:27:24,290
What banks do this?
What banks do this?

824
00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:27,090
And what are the advantages and
disadvantages to each?

825
00:27:27,090 --> 00:27:31,910
Like there's no reason that we
couldn't be the hub of that

826
00:27:31,910 --> 00:27:32,250
information.

827
00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:33,450
Out of, you know, a simple sort of

828
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:37,110
software process that walks you
through step by step by step.

829
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:38,350
And we've sort of started that.

830
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:39,250
We have a chat bot for our infill

831
00:27:39,250 --> 00:27:39,710
housing that helps.

832
00:27:39,710 --> 00:27:41,470
But I think we'll see that

833
00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:42,750
hopefully grow over the next few
years.

834
00:27:42,750 --> 00:27:46,430
And I've got a manager in our
housing area who's really

835
00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:47,270
passionate with that.

836
00:27:47,270 --> 00:27:23,090
And I think he'll be able to pull

837
00:27:23,090 --> 00:27:23,350
it off.

838
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:23,530
Nice.

839
00:27:23,530 --> 00:27:25,950
I was going to ask about the chat
bot.

840
00:27:25,950 --> 00:27:30,590
Do you guys have like top 10
questions or what are people

841
00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:32,290
mostly asking that they don't
know?

842
00:27:32,290 --> 00:27:33,730
I was just so curious what the
conversations are.

843
00:27:33,730 --> 00:27:34,910
That's maybe another video.

844
00:27:34,910 --> 00:27:36,130
maybe another video.

845
00:27:36,130 --> 00:27:38,350
Let me go back and get the data.

846
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:39,170
Like I deal mostly in the data

847
00:27:39,170 --> 00:27:40,290
logs, like how many people are
using it?

848
00:27:40,290 --> 00:27:44,410
When are they using it?
And so we have like 100 to 200

849
00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:46,970
people a month using our various
chatbots in our area.

850
00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:50,280
And mostly during business hours,
smaller percentage evenings and

851
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:50,640
weekends type thing.

852
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,380
When we actually talk about them

853
00:27:54,380 --> 00:27:56,100
in the media, then the use goes up
too.

854
00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:57,700
our It's about to skyrocket.

855
00:27:57,700 --> 00:27:59,080
Yeah, if you post this, it will

856
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,660
get more likes even from that.

857
00:28:00,660 --> 00:28:02,360
Or I was talking about our

858
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:06,000
chatbots in Calgary on Monday on
this technology panel that I was

859
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:06,200
on.

860
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,500
Somehow my 10 -year -old tells me

861
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:09,940
like I'm terrible at Minecraft.

862
00:28:09,940 --> 00:28:11,340
He's been trying to teach me how

863
00:28:11,340 --> 00:28:12,280
to acquire them.

864
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,160
And he thinks it's hilarious that

865
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,280
I'm so bad at video games, but yet
I'm presenting at conferences.

866
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,280
I'm talking about artificial
intelligence.

867
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,020
That's awesome.

868
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:21,100
I'm not the guy who could tell you

869
00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:21,260
exactly.

870
00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:23,300
like how the software works or

871
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:25,380
anything else, just our experience
like using it so far.

872
00:28:25,380 --> 00:28:28,200
And one of the things actually
that we're finding is that the

873
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,960
chatbots, once you get them going
and they're answering questions

874
00:28:30,570 --> 00:28:32,810
for people, they're meant to
answer like, you know, in our

875
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:35,050
building process where we launched
them first, we get tons of

876
00:28:35,050 --> 00:28:29,540
questions about like swimming pool
construction, for example, and how

877
00:28:29,540 --> 00:28:32,070
high fences need to be around
swimming pools, what are the

878
00:28:36,530 --> 00:28:39,270
setbacks from property lines or
the house and all those types of

879
00:28:39,270 --> 00:28:39,490
things.

880
00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:40,790
That's what gets asked pretty

881
00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:41,110
frequently.

882
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:42,110
But if you don't maintain the

883
00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:43,910
chatbot, it actually starts to get
dumber and answer questions.

884
00:28:43,910 --> 00:28:45,730
Oh, really?
I'm not even lying.

885
00:28:45,730 --> 00:28:47,130
I had a conversation about it
yesterday with one of our tech

886
00:28:47,130 --> 00:28:47,630
guys.

887
00:28:47,630 --> 00:28:49,890
And he said, yeah, that's one of

888
00:28:49,890 --> 00:28:51,550
the challenges that we're having.

889
00:28:51,550 --> 00:28:54,040
I don't know if it's because the

890
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,940
chatbots aren't getting like
positive reinforcement or what.

891
00:28:55,940 --> 00:28:57,400
I don't know enough about it.

892
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,860
it. So we all have to do our part

893
00:28:59,860 --> 00:29:01,220
and go ask questions to make us
smarter.

894
00:29:01,220 --> 00:29:04,100
I actually think it's because the
chatbots are pointed at like

895
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:05,340
specific bylaws and areas for
information.

896
00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:08,140
And so if we're changing in those
areas, how that information is

897
00:29:08,140 --> 00:29:10,740
worded or presented, then it's
pulling things out.

898
00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:11,020
It'll misinterpret.

899
00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:11,800
And when it's putting them into

900
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,920
its own words, I think that's
maybe what's going on.

901
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,240
But yeah, again, as a guy who's
like not the expert, I'm just a

902
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,580
liberal arts planner.

903
00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:21,960
I'm not an IT guy.

904
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:22,640
That was pretty funny.

905
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,620
I feel like I can relate to the

906
00:29:24,260 --> 00:29:24,500
chatbot.

907
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:26,280
If I don't get positive

908
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:26,720
reinforcement, I'm just...

909
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:27,320
You just start lying.

910
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,420
You don't need a fence there.

911
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:29,960
That's fine.

912
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,320
Well, I think there's some danger
in that because we're actually

913
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:32,980
giving people advice.

914
00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:33,920
We start getting terrible building

915
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,480
permit submissions for certain
things where they're all

916
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,440
consistently wrong in the same
way.

917
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,640
Our chatbot's called Kai, so it's
probably Kai's fault.

918
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,260
But again, it's like a natural
growing pain that we have to

919
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,260
evolve that way, right?
Like to speed things up and make

920
00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:48,680
it more efficient.

921
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:49,780
Yeah, I think if we weren't...

922
00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:52,860
trying to use new technology,
there'd be a signal to our

923
00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:54,480
community saying, what's our local
government doing?

924
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,040
They're not trying to be more
efficient.

925
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,000
They're not trying to provide
service to us in a more convenient

926
00:29:59,000 --> 00:29:59,340
way.

927
00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:00,540
And we'd be getting criticism over

928
00:30:00,540 --> 00:30:00,760
that.

929
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,900
And we're actually a great size to

930
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:05,260
be testing those things because if
we're putting wrong information

931
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:10,120
out there, it's not like we're in
a city the size of Surrey.

932
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,120
We're like, you know, six or 700
,000 people are getting terrible

933
00:30:16,570 --> 00:30:16,870
information.

934
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:18,870
We're a little bit smaller than

935
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:19,270
one.

936
00:30:19,290 --> 00:30:22,310
So, you know, maybe we see it show

937
00:30:22,450 --> 00:30:22,490
up.

938
00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:23,610
with a couple of people in the

939
00:30:23,610 --> 00:30:24,630
next two months.

940
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:26,730
And I say this consistently, staff

941
00:30:26,730 --> 00:30:29,090
can also give the wrong
information too by accident.

942
00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:32,210
And so, I mean, it's not the first
time it's happened and won't be

943
00:30:32,210 --> 00:30:32,650
the last.

944
00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:33,090
Yeah.

945
00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:33,230
Yeah.

946
00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:34,690
Well, and by implementing some of

947
00:30:34,690 --> 00:30:38,070
this stuff too, like you guys are
getting grants at a provincial and

948
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:39,110
federal level too, right?
Oh yeah.

949
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:41,190
You know, you're getting
recognized as like an innovative

950
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:41,410
city.

951
00:30:41,410 --> 00:30:42,830
So therefore there's benefits to

952
00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:42,930
it.

953
00:30:42,930 --> 00:30:43,390
Oh yeah.

954
00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:44,050
Big time.

955
00:30:44,350 --> 00:30:44,970
Big time.

956
00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:45,310
Yeah.

957
00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:48,630
Yeah, I get invited to tech panels

958
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:50,110
that I have no business for.

959
00:30:51,210 --> 00:30:52,070
That's awesome.

960
00:30:52,590 --> 00:30:53,170
Maybe one question.

961
00:30:53,170 --> 00:30:57,070
I'm just curious about single

962
00:30:57,070 --> 00:30:58,850
family houses, building permits on
that level.

963
00:30:58,850 --> 00:31:01,250
You know, we kind of spoke
obviously about condos and maybe

964
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:02,230
some purpose built rentals.

965
00:31:02,230 --> 00:31:03,470
Are we seeing much activity on any

966
00:31:03,470 --> 00:31:05,570
kind of building permits for
single family homes?

967
00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:08,730
Or is that just kind of sitting by
the wayside now?

968
00:31:08,730 --> 00:31:09,330
Yeah, it's pretty consistent.

969
00:31:09,330 --> 00:31:10,030
We see between like.

970
00:31:10,030 --> 00:31:11,650
200 and 350 a year in Kelowna.

971
00:31:12,010 --> 00:31:13,650
There's actually no such thing as

972
00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:15,570
single family zoning anywhere in
Kelowna.

973
00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:16,150
Right.

974
00:31:16,150 --> 00:31:18,690
That kind of ended last year when

975
00:31:18,690 --> 00:31:20,410
the province changed all its
legislation.

976
00:31:20,410 --> 00:31:24,490
That kind of ended last year when
the province changed all its

977
00:31:24,490 --> 00:31:24,850
legislation.

978
00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:25,130
Yeah.

979
00:31:25,310 --> 00:31:27,930
But we still see people building
single family homes, obviously.

980
00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:31,030
And about 70 % of the single
family homes that get built have

981
00:31:31,090 --> 00:31:31,810
secondary suites in them now.

982
00:31:31,810 --> 00:31:32,550
That is awesome.

983
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:34,270
Kind of an interesting stat.

984
00:31:34,270 --> 00:31:36,570
But you could do single family

985
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,340
house, secondary suite, carriage
house, depending on your lot if

986
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:40,960
you wanted to now and do it
legally.

987
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,400
Or you could do... fourplex or two
twos.

988
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:51,960
So we're starting to see that
trickle out into some of the

989
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:52,620
suburban neighborhoods now.

990
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:54,460
It used to just be a center of the

991
00:31:54,460 --> 00:31:57,400
city thing in Kelowna.

992
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,860
And now, you know, in the lower

993
00:31:59,860 --> 00:32:01,760
mission, you're seeing a few.

994
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:02,700
And there's great concern over

995
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:04,280
this in the lower mission.

996
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,620
And I don't know if people weren't

997
00:32:07,620 --> 00:32:10,940
paying attention to the news last
year, but this is something that's

998
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:11,080
provincial.

999
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,580
I was going to ask you, have you

1000
00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:14,140
seen like any specific
flashpoints?

1001
00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:15,580
Yeah, I mean, yes.

1002
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,300
The first few applications that

1003
00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:20,100
we've approved for three or four
unit buildings sort of in that

1004
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:22,000
lower mission area, we're hearing
like great concern over that.

1005
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,120
And we did water down.

1006
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,580
The provinces, like their zoning

1007
00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:28,140
regulations that they asked us to
implement quite a bit from what

1008
00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:31,820
got implemented in the center of
the city to sort of the suburban

1009
00:32:31,820 --> 00:32:34,500
Kelowna, like Glenmore, parts of
Rutland, and the Mission all got a

1010
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:34,780
lighter touch.

1011
00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:35,960
And we complied with the

1012
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,680
provincial legislations.

1013
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,080
And I'm saying this publicly.

1014
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,920
It's not like we circumvented
their rules in any way.

1015
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,040
But it was just sort of a lighter
touch.

1016
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,520
a bit But When this stuff happens,
it's complicated.

1017
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,160
It's not put in language that the
average person living on Sarsen's

1018
00:32:47,620 --> 00:32:48,200
Road understands.

1019
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,780
We did actually quite a bit of

1020
00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:53,540
advertising last year about our
infill programs and what was

1021
00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:53,760
happening.

1022
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:54,620
We had bus stop advertising.

1023
00:32:54,620 --> 00:32:58,100
But thinking back, I don't know if
I pay attention to any bus stop

1024
00:32:58,300 --> 00:32:58,380
advertising.

1025
00:32:58,380 --> 00:32:59,720
Especially not the kind of people

1026
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,160
that are going to be bitching
about a fourplex next door.

1027
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:02,560
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

1028
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,080
We've been advertising at the BMW

1029
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:05,540
dealership.

1030
00:33:05,540 --> 00:33:07,060
That's actually a good idea.

1031
00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:09,140
I'm going to do that next time.

1032
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:10,940
Yeah, I actually have a couple of

1033
00:33:10,940 --> 00:33:16,620
lots for sale on McClure and like
all the interest we've got is four

1034
00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:17,000
plexes.

1035
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,100
And I'm just like, hey, this is

1036
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:20,360
interesting.

1037
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,240
And some of those lots are like

1038
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,500
the parking is really sort of the
limiting factor.

1039
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:29,320
some of those lots are like the
parking is really sort of the

1040
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:29,880
limiting factor.

1041
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,220
Can you get the parking on and

1042
00:33:31,220 --> 00:33:33,660
comply with our bylaws?
And we're actually been pretty

1043
00:33:33,660 --> 00:33:38,550
strict on that because in those
areas, lots of people have, you

1044
00:33:38,550 --> 00:33:40,610
know, the two and three cars.

1045
00:33:40,610 --> 00:33:42,810
And so trying to make sure that

1046
00:33:42,810 --> 00:33:45,870
they get the minimum number of
parking stalls and being

1047
00:33:45,870 --> 00:33:46,870
inflexible on that front.

1048
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:47,010
Yep.

1049
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:43,790
to Nice.

1050
00:33:43,790 --> 00:33:45,870
We'll see more friction in that

1051
00:33:45,870 --> 00:33:49,750
area as more of the city starts to
see different housing types end up

1052
00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:50,450
in their neighborhood.

1053
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:53,290
And I think we had our biggest

1054
00:33:53,290 --> 00:33:56,090
year last year for infill housing
for like the four to six unit

1055
00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:56,390
level.

1056
00:33:56,390 --> 00:33:58,010
see more friction in that area as

1057
00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:01,890
more of the city starts to see
different housing types end up in

1058
00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:02,210
their neighborhood.

1059
00:34:02,210 --> 00:34:03,410
And I think we had our biggest

1060
00:34:03,410 --> 00:34:07,900
year last year for infill housing
for like the four to six unit

1061
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:08,000
level.

1062
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,120
And we did 45 permits for those.

1063
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,600
And I think success in my mind
would be if five years from now we

1064
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,510
were doing a couple hundred a
year.

1065
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:15,850
Really?
Yeah.

1066
00:34:16,070 --> 00:34:19,010
If we were doing a couple hundred
a year and of those couple

1067
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:20,870
hundred, if 30 or 40 were modular.

1068
00:34:20,870 --> 00:34:22,870
I think that that would be a

1069
00:34:22,870 --> 00:34:23,830
really good news story.

1070
00:34:23,830 --> 00:34:24,710
That would be awesome.

1071
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:25,270
would be awesome.

1072
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:26,889
How do we get to that level?

1073
00:34:26,889 --> 00:34:28,610
That whole combination of
availability for modular housing,

1074
00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:31,250
whole combination of availability
for modular housing, partnerships

1075
00:34:31,250 --> 00:34:35,350
with Fortis, trying to make things
easy on that front.

1076
00:34:35,350 --> 00:34:37,070
continuing to make sure our
process here remains streamlined.

1077
00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:40,290
And then maybe, Taylor, you can
say better than I can.

1078
00:34:40,290 --> 00:34:46,020
But like borrowing for those four
unit buildings is a little bit

1079
00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:48,940
different, I think, isn't it, than
borrowing for like a house and a

1080
00:34:48,940 --> 00:34:49,300
suite?
It is.

1081
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:52,239
Yeah, they are coming out with
some great programs that they

1082
00:34:52,420 --> 00:34:52,460
have.

1083
00:34:52,460 --> 00:34:55,980
But still, even at the government

1084
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:58,280
level, like CMHC, a lot of lenders
haven't allowed those policies

1085
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:58,380
yet.

1086
00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:00,000
They're like, yeah, we have the

1087
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,720
information from CMHC, but we
don't really know how to implement

1088
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:04,000
it in our own underwriting
guidelines.

1089
00:35:04,000 --> 00:34:47,600
So there's like a lag there.

1090
00:34:47,600 --> 00:35:06,740
You know, it's coming.

1091
00:35:06,740 --> 00:35:07,220
It's coming.

1092
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:08,400
have the Yeah.

1093
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,600
So that's I think that like lots
of things will come together in

1094
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,600
the next few years.

1095
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:14,960
There's financing, there's

1096
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,580
development process, there's the
construction, the power aspect of

1097
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:18,580
this and making sure that's right.

1098
00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:21,080
And I think it will come.

1099
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,420
I think we're doing the right
things in Kelowna.

1100
00:35:22,420 --> 00:35:26,940
The pre -approved designs, too,
that we have.

1101
00:35:26,940 --> 00:35:27,780
We're expanding that catalog of
pre -approved designs.

1102
00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:28,920
Well, there are some federal.

1103
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,160
pre -approved designs, will adopt.

1104
00:35:30,420 --> 00:35:36,120
And hopefully if builders can
build the same versions of the

1105
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,360
same thing over and over too, that
will help speed up the approval

1106
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:39,820
process for infill housing.

1107
00:35:39,820 --> 00:35:41,200
Yeah, well, we had a great episode

1108
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:41,960
a few months back.

1109
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,320
It was a two -part one.

1110
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,140
We brought you guys on with
Sandbox as well to go over some of

1111
00:35:47,140 --> 00:35:47,800
their designs.

1112
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,920
And I went to that infill housing

1113
00:35:45,620 --> 00:35:46,360
day as well.

1114
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,140
It was awesome.

1115
00:35:47,140 --> 00:35:48,740
So yeah, you guys are doing good
things.

1116
00:35:48,740 --> 00:35:50,200
We appreciate it.

1117
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,500
Yeah, some of one of the other

1118
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,920
bits that we might look at doing
is some speed funding to get

1119
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,400
infill going.

1120
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:56,660
There's lots of property owners

1121
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,100
who are like, like land rich and
cash poor.

1122
00:35:59,100 --> 00:35:59,840
A lot.

1123
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:00,680
I've talked about that a lot.

1124
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,640
Yeah, but maybe they have two kids
that are just finishing up at

1125
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,080
University of Calgary or NAIT or
down like at UBC and want to come

1126
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:07,140
back.

1127
00:36:07,140 --> 00:36:08,100
The house isn't right.

1128
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:09,680
They've got a small mangala.

1129
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,060
How do they do it?

1130
00:36:11,060 --> 00:36:14,100
They want to build something for
their kids and then they sell a

1131
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:05,620
couple of units on the property or
something like that.

1132
00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:07,080
Like how do they afford to do
that?

1133
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,920
And how do they pay for the
drawings, the DCCs to get it

1134
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,560
rolling?
And so we've been talking with a

1135
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,440
couple of different small housing,
BC, middle from Alberta about, you

1136
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,340
know, how we make that work.

1137
00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:19,820
And so, you know, if we got some

1138
00:36:19,820 --> 00:36:22,420
extra money from the federal
government for our housing

1139
00:36:22,420 --> 00:36:24,900
accelerator projects, we may roll
a project like to help more infill

1140
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:25,440
get going.

1141
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:26,480
So you'd essentially like partner

1142
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:27,000
with the existing homeowner.

1143
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,420
We would loan money to get things

1144
00:36:29,420 --> 00:36:32,990
going and then they would pay us
back on the end with a little bit

1145
00:36:32,990 --> 00:36:33,430
of interest.

1146
00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:34,410
We would loan money to get things

1147
00:36:34,530 --> 00:36:38,930
going and then they would pay us
back on the end with a little bit

1148
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:36,270
of interest.

1149
00:36:36,270 --> 00:36:38,930
Like we're essentially acting like

1150
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:42,070
a small bank anyway.

1151
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:43,490
And then we would roll that into

1152
00:36:43,490 --> 00:36:47,170
another project and hopefully we
build up our capital to invest

1153
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:47,730
over time.

1154
00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:49,330
And, you know, we start with, you

1155
00:36:49,330 --> 00:36:51,230
know, two or three projects a
year.

1156
00:36:51,230 --> 00:36:54,250
And then, you know, 15 years from
now, we're doing 30 or 40.

1157
00:36:54,250 --> 00:36:55,510
That would be awesome because
you're right.

1158
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:56,510
That is a major need.

1159
00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:56,750
Yeah.

1160
00:36:56,830 --> 00:36:57,890
And it's not being fulfilled.

1161
00:36:57,890 --> 00:36:59,090
Like the banks aren't quite there

1162
00:36:59,090 --> 00:36:59,450
yet.

1163
00:36:59,610 --> 00:37:01,150
And yeah, I mean, I think there's

1164
00:37:01,350 --> 00:37:06,220
lots or maybe for whatever reason,
like they just don't fit the risk

1165
00:37:06,220 --> 00:37:06,360
profile.

1166
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,440
But we think they're low risk and

1167
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,420
who they partner with, that
they're partnering with

1168
00:37:09,420 --> 00:37:12,680
established groups who are, you
know, can help them project manage

1169
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,600
it the whole way through.

1170
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:14,780
And we trust them.

1171
00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:15,340
Then, yeah, I think.

1172
00:37:15,340 --> 00:37:16,780
Yeah, that would be a huge factor,

1173
00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:18,800
But that would be a huge factor,
too.

1174
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,300
But yes.

1175
00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:21,020
on the right track?

1176
00:37:21,020 --> 00:37:25,500
It's going to be a really
interesting next, I would say,

1177
00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:27,520
year to see what the federal
government does first.

1178
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,480
I think they need to move pretty
quickly on the housing front.

1179
00:37:29,660 --> 00:37:32,680
And so if the GST exemptions for
first -time home buyers will

1180
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,240
probably happen quickly, do they
allow foreign buyers to buy new

1181
00:37:35,310 --> 00:37:37,330
housing?
That could happen quite quickly.

1182
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:40,730
The DCCs may or may not be more
complicated.

1183
00:37:40,730 --> 00:37:41,490
I'm thinking of...

1184
00:37:41,490 --> 00:37:42,650
Everything we'd need to change

1185
00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:46,010
here when we're changing our DCC
bylaw, I don't know what tools

1186
00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:48,870
they have to like order us to do
it and how that works out.

1187
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:50,230
I know that the provincial
government is also considering

1188
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:52,970
changing the time when DCCs get
paid with a construction project.

1189
00:37:52,970 --> 00:37:53,710
That would be awesome.

1190
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:53,850
Yeah.

1191
00:37:53,850 --> 00:37:56,250
From when we issue building permit
to when occupancy permit is.

1192
00:37:56,250 --> 00:37:56,550
Yeah.

1193
00:37:56,730 --> 00:37:58,730
And that would be a big deal for a

1194
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:59,390
lot of people.

1195
00:37:52,830 --> 00:37:59,730
Like just those three things

1196
00:37:59,730 --> 00:38:03,190
coming together, I think start to
change the way that developers are

1197
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:05,010
looking at the housing market.

1198
00:38:05,230 --> 00:38:06,610
But there's probably some more

1199
00:38:06,610 --> 00:38:08,250
fundamental change and
prioritization that needs to

1200
00:38:08,250 --> 00:38:12,010
happen in this country over the
next five years if we want to be

1201
00:38:12,010 --> 00:38:13,030
like consistently delivering
housing.

1202
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:14,810
Back to the priority sort of
discussion.

1203
00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:17,930
We keep seeing provincial and
federal government get more

1204
00:38:17,930 --> 00:38:19,490
involved in municipalities
business, but it's for good reason

1205
00:38:19,490 --> 00:38:21,510
because like the priorities are
all over the place.

1206
00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:23,770
I think a component to that is
measurement too.

1207
00:38:23,770 --> 00:38:25,970
The province is already measuring
how much housing we're producing.

1208
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:27,870
CMHC is already measuring us in a
bit of a different way.

1209
00:38:27,870 --> 00:38:28,910
But, you know, across.

1210
00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:30,350
Canada, hopefully we'll see the

1211
00:38:30,350 --> 00:38:32,970
federal government say, OK, that
the communities that streamline

1212
00:38:32,970 --> 00:38:36,990
their processes the best to accept
and permit housing and are working

1213
00:38:36,990 --> 00:38:38,610
well with industry to do that.

1214
00:38:38,610 --> 00:38:42,170
We'll get their fair share of

1215
00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:44,170
infrastructure dollars and grants,
because that's what we've not been

1216
00:38:44,170 --> 00:38:46,530
seeing is sort of our fair share
on that front here.

1217
00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:49,910
We've been good performers, good
partners with government, and we'd

1218
00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:51,610
love to continue to be that.

1219
00:38:51,610 --> 00:38:52,670
It's like the infrastructure help

1220
00:38:52,830 --> 00:38:55,090
is a really big, big piece to the
puzzle.

1221
00:38:55,090 --> 00:38:56,370
Love it.

1222
00:38:56,370 --> 00:38:56,530
Awesome.

1223
00:38:56,530 --> 00:38:58,490
Well, thank you so much for coming
on.

1224
00:38:58,490 --> 00:39:00,350
I mean, yeah, we love having
anyone from the city come on, but

1225
00:39:00,350 --> 00:39:00,970
you're awesome, man.

1226
00:38:56,250 --> 00:38:57,450
So yeah, I appreciate it.

1227
00:38:57,450 --> 00:38:58,490
Yeah, appreciate it, guys.