72: How the Provincial Housing Bills are Impacting the City with Kelowna City Planner Adam Cseke

0:00 Welcome back to the Kelowna Real Estate Podcast. I'm your mortgage broker host, Taylor Atkinson. And I'm your real estate agent host, Matt Glenn. How's your summer so far, Taylor? Good, man. Yeah, we're just on Vancouver Island, actually Hornby Island for a little bit of a break, which was awesome. How about you? you? I've just been zinging busy. I'm just like so busy right now. Listings, buyers, putting deals together, deals falling apart, seems to be a theme this year. Yeah. Yeah, it's going, it's busy, busy's busy busy yeah yeah it's been pretty steady for me and busy busy yeah yeah it's been pretty steady for me and then the last couple weeks has seemed to really pick up I don't think it has anything to do with the recent rate announcement by Bank of Canada where we saw 0.25% decrease second consecutive time yeah as expected as expected which is awesome but as expected as expected which is awesome but yeah I don't think I was kind of hoping for a bigger increase.

0:44 I knew it was a long shot, but I was like, drop it a half a point. Yeah, I think it'll be slow and steady over the next 12 months, but they're moving in the right direction. Yeah. A few points to talk on that. The previous decrease that they made key indicator was that we didn't see our Canadian dollar drop against the US dollar, which means as a whole, our economy is fairly stable. We don't want to see any of our Bank of Canada announcements really reflect a huge change in the strength of our dollar. So it actually increased by 0.03% on that week. That's a good sign, something to watch for. If that continues, then we still have room to kind of make those rate cuts. Also something interesting I thought is, you know, obviously the Bank of Canada is mandated to control inflation to what they say is a comfortable level.

1:25 The funny thing is like 12 months ago, we were always beating the drum saying, this is crazy. You know, they're increasing the interest rate to control inflation. However, that's just driving inflation because it drives the cost of housing up. Now it's actually really working to our advantage because when they start to decrease rates, you know, the scarcity is, oh, well, inflation is going to get out of control again. But in actuality, like we're decreasing the cost of housing, you know, slightly with these rate decreases. So we should actually also control inflation downwards as well. So it's kind of a funny way they do their CPI there. Those are kind of two takeaways I saw from that. Okay, Taylor, as a mortgage Taylor, as a mortgage broker, so you have people that are going for variable or a fixed, like fixed right now or lower interest rate, right? So what would you recommend?

2:11 Like we expect more rates coming down. So the favorable rate will come down, but what are you advising people to do right now? Yeah. Great question. So I just had a client call this morning. Everyone's different in terms of it's insured, insurable, uninsured, 25 year AM, 30 year AM over a million rental, et cetera, et cetera. But for this specific client situation, since the loan, the value is strong, it's owner occupied, it's less than a million. We're seeing a five-year fixed at 4.79, a four-year fixed at 4.84, a three-year fixed at 4.99 and a five-year variable. So discount on prime is at 5.75. Wow. Only three quarters of a point higher. Yeah. So again, it really changes for your specific situation, but going back to when we spoke to Brendan Augmentson a couple of months back, his projection for the five-year fixed at the end of three years.

3:01 So in three years from now was 4.75. So we're basically like right where we are, you know, in that five-year fixed where he's projecting it to be in three years. So I've never recommended a five-year until kind of recently. Like, hey, if you want the stability, maybe you're a first-time home buyer, maybe you're concerned about a budget, that might not be a bad option. The only real risk is the interest rate differential. If you do break it, the penalty is going to be higher if rates do decrease. But with the variable, it's finally starting to come back into play as like, hey, it might not be a bad product for the right individual. So for this instance, we kind of made a rough calculation. They would probably lose money in the first year. So it would cost them about $1,700 over the first 12 months. And then they would recoup that in the second and third year.

3:45 And then in the fourth and the fifth year, pending if bank cuts continue, they'd actually come out net positive about $1,600 if they went variable over the five-year fix. Now, it's kind of negligible at that point. The thing I want to communicate is variables finally starting to come back in where, okay, if the trend continues with rate drops, it's not a bad option, especially if you want flexibility of refining or selling in the future. So yeah, it's kind of nice. It's more of an even playing field. Interesting. Good advice, Taylor. I asked the right guy. Thanks. And to go on to the fixed side where the bond market is supporting those rates, we actually saw the bond market increase a few weeks ago, and that was due to the presidential debate in the States between Biden and Trump.

4:31 Biden absolutely dropped the ball, came off incredibly weak. And because of that, it looks like the economy is going to be stronger in terms of Trump's policies down there, where they're more concerned about inflation. So that's why our bond market went up. Now it has kind of come back down the last couple of weeks, but that's something- Yeah, what about Kamala? Does she help bring it down again? I don't something- Yeah, what about Kamala? Does she help bring it down don't know. I doubt it. It's all pretty fresh there, but those are kind of the interesting things to watch in terms of where our dollar is, how strong it is, how the bond market is, what's going on in the presidential election in the future in the States. But as of now, we're on the right track for rate cuts.

5:11 Yeah, Bank of Canada, now we've seen two consecutive. Will we see a third? It's kind of up in the air depending on what inflation and unemployment and GDP is going to go like. But I would say we'll probably see another one before the end of the year. What about you? I've been hearing that we're getting two been hearing that we're getting two more by the end of the year. There's three more announcements, right? Yeah. We got three more announcements before the end of the year. September 4th, October 23rd and December 11th. Yeah. I want to be optimistic too and say for sure we're getting two more. I mean, we should. That's what I've been hearing. I've been hearing the I've been hearing the consensus is we're getting two more. They're just not not sure which two. I'm going to go longer term and say we'll get a 0.75% decrease cumulatively by this time next year. Again, that may be more conservative. I think we should see a full 1% cut in the next 12 months.

5:55 From now? So like three and a half instead of four and a half? Yeah. I think that's kind of where the happy place is. If they continue this trend and things are stable, you know, inflation's controlled, our dollar doesn't get stronger or weaker. There's no reason not to, but yeah, time will tell, I guess. Yeah. We're just here for the just here for the ride. Buckle up, bro. We're We're here. Well, that kind of ties into like the big part of the interest rate, you know, prime rate is mostly due to either if you're on a variable line of credit or for a lot of developers building. So today we brought back on, you know, one of my favorite guests, Adam Cheka from City of Kelowna. Awesome guy. You know, I ran into him at our kids doing gymnastics and we're like, man, we got to have you back on.

6:35 So we kind of spoke to him in depth. It's been a bit of a stagnant last few months for development permits. And so it seems like things are finally catching I up. thought this would happen six or seven months ago, but he said it's been more recent where they just haven't seen so many developers, you know, start to actually go through with their projects or apply for them. It seems like that high interest rate environment kind of slowed down the market, which, I mean, this is kind of your wheelhouse. You're thinking potentially that's going to add less supply, which... Very much. Very much. We've been hearing a lot of developments either get paused or shelved completely, which is just like our population hasn't stopped growing. So we're going to continue to grow less housing, supply and demand. Prices are going up. It's just a matter of when. We're going to have probably another boom in 2026.

7:18 So if the numbers work for you right now, I'd try and get in the market now. In Kelowna, we are rarely ever in a buyer's market. And when we do, we hit it for short periods of time, like one, two months. Now we've been in it for a while while and it's not going to last forever. Like this is a time for a buyer to finally take advantage of it. You know, they can be in the driver's seat, which never happens in Kelowna. So it's kind of nice. Like this is a good time to get in there. Yeah. And going back to the rate conversation, these are generally the rates we're going to see for the next three years. So if you're waiting for the rates to go down on the fixed side, it's very unlikely.

7:58 And if you really want the variable product, well, you know, even if you get a property under contract now and close in a couple of months, you could potentially see that variable come down within the first six months of your purchase. So if you're sitting on the sidelines because of rates, just go for it. Now's the time. I agree. 100%. Well, we'll let you get to the show with Adam Cheka. Yeah. Really appreciated his time. City of Kelowna. Yeah, awesome guy. And his daughter is awesome at gymnastics. So shout out to Francie. All right. And then this episode, like every episode, is brought to you by Century 21 Assurance Realty. The only Century 21 in Central and North Okanagan now. Best brokerage. My brokerage. I love it here. You will too. As an agent looking for a new brokerage or your buyer or seller looking for an agent looking for a new brokerage or your buyer or seller looking for an agent century 21 insurance realty is uh the best right on enjoy the show guys adam chuck uh welcome back to the show two-time returning guest fan on enjoy the show two-time returning guest fan favorite bad favorite well thanks for having me bad favorite well thanks for having me actually also host favorite yeah i feel like i'm getting buttered up here yeah brace yourself for what's coming because nothing but hardballs on this pod there you go yeah you go yeah i ran into you a few times at gymnastics not our gymnastics but our kids so spider monkeys yeah we were talking shop and figured we gotta get you back on the podcast so yeah toddler gymnastics is like hurting cats a little toddler gymnastics is like hurting cats a little bit.

9:06 Somebody's always melting down. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your daughter is pretty awesome. My son's an animal out there. Yeah, well, first question we like to ask other than gymnastics, what's your perfect Friday look like, you know, productivity work wise, and then leading into the weekend? What does it look like for you? for you? Well, it's perfect with the toddler would be a successful daycare drop-off, you know, not massive meltdowns. Yesterday was horrible. It was like the worst drop-off ever. It was like fighting me and punching and then like hitting the daycare worker. Yeah. Yeah. So having a calm drop-off is like the perfect recipe to a start of the day. Obviously coffee, then get some exercise, maybe not lunch. And that leads to like maybe a productive afternoon. And then wind down with wine. And that would be nice at the end of the day.

9:48 So yeah, that sounds wonderful. I guess as long as it gets off to the right start. Yeah, that sounds very familiar. Today's daycare was a doozy for sure. It was a doozy? It was a doozy? Yeah. It's so cyclical. It'd be hidden best. Yeah. I mean, kind of like city planning applications, you know, we'll dive into that. Well, usually Well, usually by the end of the week, it's better. So it goes in waves. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk about your position with the city a little bit. Can you give us kind of a brief outline of, yeah, over the last couple of years, I guess, since we originally spoke, what's been going on? on? Yes. I'm one of the senior planners here at the city of Kelowna. The last time we spoke, I rewrote the whole zoning bylaw and then came onto the podcast and kind of explained and talked about some things that happened there.

10:32 So that was in September of 2022, I think that was. And then we spoke a month or two later. Most recently in the fall, there was Bill 44, 46 and 47 from the provincial government. There's the short term rental. There was the small scale multi-unit housing legislation and the transit oriented areas legislation. So all the housing bills the provincial government are doing. And then my boss asked me to stick handle implementing all that. And we implemented all the zoning regs. It was adopted end of March. And then the OCP amendments, my colleagues were done kind of by May, June. And so now we've just wrapped up, you know, the first quarter slash half of this year, implementing all the housing legislation bills. legislation bills. From the province, they gave every municipality essentially a deadline to implement these bills. Yeah. And that was the end of June. So just like a week ago. So yeah, I've heard like Kelowna was kind of leading this.

11:13 So you guys did a really good job proactively. But I've heard other municipalities, you know, may have not been as quick as you guys are efficient. So what happens? What's the repercussion if you didn't meet those deadlines? Well, there is threats in the legislation. Let's see if the provincial government follows through. But the ultimate response is that, you know, the provincial government could assign somebody to take over the duties of council and do it for them. Wow. So there might be also funding or there might be some more keratin sticks, how the ministry would work with those other municipalities that like didn't make the deadline or if they just needed an extra few weeks or a month or something. So, I mean, I think they were hoping to have minimal conflicts I minimal conflicts with municipalities.

11:56 So what was the hardest part? Like what part of all municipalities. So what was the hardest part? Like what part of all those zoning changes was the hardest for you? Well, for for us, I would say we were doing a lot of this stuff anyways. We had a core area infill housing group that was happening in 2023. And so we were well on our way to do a lot of this work anyways. Some of the things that we weren't doing was probably the infill housing in the suburbs, like on the hillsides, as well as some of the transit exchanges and the parking rules that were done by the provincial governments we likely would not have implemented. So I would say approximately about 80% or so we were already doing. And then there was a few things we had to add on you know because of provincial mandates suburban info mandates suburban info like how does that work in communities that are on septic are they still allowed to infill like how does that work well so we did it so that all of our suburban areas have sewer work well so we did it so that all of our suburban areas have sewer so in suburban areas you can go up to four units okay you have to be on sewer the small scale multi-unit housing in the legislation didn't apply essentially to properties with septic so it's mostly focused on areas with services and within a you know urban containment boundary but for Kelowna for us that's the permanent growth boundary yeah so like for us it would be for example like the ponds Black Mountain, Christian Mountain, Tower Ranch, Wilda areas like that yeah interesting i mean obviously this is interesting i mean obviously this is like brand new but do you guys have projections are they provided eventually or do you guys had to order a third party report from the city to say you know because of bill 44 we are now projecting you know x more units being built over the next five years like do

13:26 we have those numbers well somewhat like so for the suburban areas, somewhat like so for the suburban areas, let's just say we've pre-zoned now 13,400 lots to be allowed to have four units. And then within the core area, there was 11,500 lots pre-zoned to allow for up to six units. They may not be able to do six units depending on lot size. You still have to do parking. So there's a lot of factors that go into like practically whether you can achieve that unit count. The City of Kelowna was awarded a housing accelerator fund for the federal government to hit certain residential targets. And so there is projections. The city just did a housing needs assessment probably at the end of 2023. And then with this legislation, we are kind of mandated to redo that just like six months later. So there are targets and we are somewhat on our way for the five-year targets. There's about 2,800 units that we need to hit for missing middle, 4,200 units for other multi-unit housing, and then 420 affordable housing units.

14:11 So this is over five years. We kind of just have our brand new Q1 stats for 2024. So it's like really fresh. It's only Q1. So in comparing those to other Q1s over the previous years, they are down. Volumes are down. Value is way down. Value is like from major huge projects versus, let's say, like the total number of permits, which might be like renovations or suites or carousels or things like that. But still early. It's only one quarter. So we'll get more data to see whether, you know, we're on track to meeting those targets. You know, obviously, pre-zoning should help facilitate, you know, easier targets. But that's just one thing. like the next thing the city is just working on right now that we're hoping to implement or that is implemented like as of right now is a fast track program where there's a few winning designs where a homeowner could pick from like a pre-selected set of plans you know up to four or five or six units build that on their site essentially straight to building permit i did see a post about that what is it it's like if you pick one of those within 10 days you get i did see a post about that what is it it's like if you pick one of those within 10 days you get granted a building permit that's right that's crazy yeah that's right that's crazy yeah yeah and there's certain criteria so like the main factor is lot width and if i remember right i think it's an 18 meter wide lot width and a certain lot depth but then doesn't apply to corner lots because it has a different situation so there's a few factors where you know it doesn't apply to

15:42 but if your property is in one of them and a lot of them are in like the lot sizes that meet it are in either the Glenmore area or the South Rutland area, like kind of north of Springfield, there's a lot of larger lots there. It's another tool and another way to help try to like accelerate housing. So that's not necessarily potentially just like a developer or investor buying a property and turning it into, you know, four or five or sixplexes that homeowners could do it too. could do it too. So how does a homeowner find out if their property would qualify for this? Yeah, there is a city website. Like it's still just being like finalized and there's going to be a new AI chatbot that's going to go. It's going to like help you like, is my property in the area? And it'll say yes or no. You just give it your address. Yeah. There's like a dozen or so criteria, but like lot width and, you know, servicing, it will figure out all that for you once you put your address in, whether, you know, your property meets this criteria.

16:29 Yeah, I think I saw City of Vernon just came out with something similar, which is pretty cool. Yeah, that would really help homeowners and obviously potential developer buyers too. But can I ask one thing? can I ask one thing? So you said a couple minutes ago, you're talking about the need of certain classes of houses. And one of them, I think it was middle? Missing middle. Missing middle? Yeah. What's the definition of that? Like cost, single family home. What is that? Well, there's two different definitions. The one for the five-year target, the city uses CMHC's definition, which is duplexes, triplexes, row housing, townhouses, all the way up to small scale apartments. So essentially four stories or less. And then the other multi-unit is essentially five or six story apartment buildings or larger. The city of Kelowna uses the term missing middle to refer more to ground-oriented housing. So more like duplexes to townhouses.

17:09 So there's a little bit of definition but that's difference, what we're talking about. that's difference, what we're talking about. And is there any driving force to build more single family Okay. homes? you know, Like, densification is one thing, but just like not multi-units, you not, know, four units at a time kind of thing infilled, but just like, we Hey, also need to build a certain amount of single family homes. Like, do you have the data on that? Or are we not even focused provincially municipality at that level? We're just about putting units on the market. The total targets like would include single family The total targets like would include single family too. So when it says missing middle, it would count all housing targets within the permanent growth boundary or within the urban containment boundary for like housing targets purpose. But the city does have its official community plan that does have targets by ourselves that want to have like a split between suburban and urban developments.

17:50 And our stats since that OCP has been done, it's been two years now, is like really quite aligned where before the OCP, it was, I think, a closer to 50-50 split between single family and, you know, infiller multis. And it's definitely more like a 70-30 now in that range. And it varies, obviously, you know, quarter to quarter and year to year. But we've definitely over the last two years have seen much more focus on the core area for development than the suburbs. I mean, a lot of our existing suburbs are just filling out their existing developments like that they've had for the last decades. The city hasn't pursued any new suburban neighborhoods. At council yesterday, there was a big discussion about expanding McKinley and council turned it down.

18:35 Council turned it down. Nice. Yes. Really? Interesting. Can we comment why they turned it down? I think one of the main reasons was, like we said, it was just too early to expand. I think the McKinley group still has, you know, 400 or so more units left that they can build out with their existing areas. And that the current OCP is only a couple years old. And the council essentially wanted to keep forward with, you know, currently infilling more of the core area. And then we're doing a OCP review in 2025 anyways, and there's going to be a general North end sector plan between 2025 and 2027. So they said that was a better time to reflect the need for maybe more suburban neighborhoods at that time. But so they said for now, they were kind of interested in planning out more suburban neighborhoods. neighborhoods. What's going on with North Clifton, North Clifton Estates? Do you know anything about that? Yep. I mean, the developer there, I think, is just planning out, you know, their regular single family dwelling that they've had for quite some time.

19:21 So, yeah. Yeah, I guess it makes me think like there's so much focus on, you know, smaller housing needs, which is totally realistic. Obviously, we're trying to provide affordable housing and that's the easiest one to go after. Is this just not going to drive up? I mean, this isn't a direct question at you for economics, but one would just think a single family house is just going to gain much more value if the supply is not being built. just going to gain much more value if the supply is not being built. Right. So I don't know. I'm just like speaking out loud here. If someone is wanting to buy a house and kind of hedge their bets on what's going to appreciate in value, maybe a condo won't be in a single family house will be.

20:09 I would say potentially. I mean, looking at our housing projections and our efficient community plan, like with the amount of single family units that have been built per year versus the total capacity within the existing like neighborhoods, like Wilden, Christian Mountain, Black Mountain, Tower Ranch, Ponds, McKinley, like the build out of all those neighborhoods is like well within like before 2030, before we really start seeing any sort of pressure. Right now, sure, there's no new planning of single familyfamily neighborhoods but there's not actually a deficit of lots to build on so that might be a future problem and future council said that would be you know in a few years to come then we could start potentially think about if that actually comes about yeah i know that's a good point like even up on like boucherie what is it vintage drive or something like there are a ton of just vacant lots ready to be built on, you know?

20:54 So until I guess the cost to build goes down, maybe that drives the supply a little more. Again, this is like very new, but are you guys seeing a lot more applications now from smaller developers or homeowners? Or are they still mostly from the large developers? I would say in general, applications have been quite down this year in 2024 across the board for planning applications. There is still some major developments that are going on. Things like the mill site, there was another area redevelopment plan for Harvey and Birch that went to council yesterday. Some major projects are still getting planned out, but there's definitely been a pause on multifamily applications. And I think also even single family and even infill across the board. And I think it has more to do with probably interest rates than it does with like the desire for supply. Yeah. I mean, I think it's the cost of housing relative to what people can afford to purchase and i think people could build more but at certain price points they're you know not selling yeah you guys probably know that better than i do like one of my neighbors i live in the infill housing area and they're selling it and it's been on the market now for it's been a brand new unit for quite some time and they just had a recent price drop by a hundred thousand or 150,000 and i think that's the trend that's going on yeah that is definitely trending yeah that is definitely trending a lot of that going on so like kind of back to what taylor was talking about like i imagine that our population is still growing i actually don't know the numbers on this oh yeah no it's booming yeah so oh yeah and now you say that all the development permits are going down like are we just setting ourselves up for another boom in two three three, four, five years?

22:23 Potentially. I mean, I think it has more to do with affordability than the desire people would like units. And I think in the bus time, you will see people being in less than ideal housing situations or younger people staying with their parents for longer. Situations like that, you'll have a crunch time time you'll be dealing with daycare dealing with daycare pickup for 40 years daycare is another uh huge problem in the is another uh huge problem in the city where there's like yes you can build quadruple the amount of spaces that they'd still be full yeah yeah the daycare that i they just opened their doors a year and a half ago that That was during the time of building blocks.

23:04 People went away. Yeah. Because of redevelopment. And I asked, do you want news coverage? Because it's a good news story that you're doing it. And the owner said, please no. Like, it's just word of mouth. And I already have like 400 people on the wait list. So I don't want any news. want any news. Yeah. And that is definitely a business in demand. There's no doubt about it. Yes. In terms of where the city Yes. In terms of where the city stands, when these eventual bills kind of forced your guys' hand, were you happy about this? Were you like, oh, yeah, we've been trying to do this for a while? Or were you guys like, ah, you know, we wanted to do this on our own time. Like, could you have done this before the bills came out anyways? Yeah, like I was saying, with the core area, we probably would have done something similar to this anyways.

23:48 There are other things that we didn't like, like devils are in the details, like the province also announced four transit-oriented areas. So they are Rutland, Orchard Park Mall, Oak Island College, and then the hospital. Noticeably, they did not include Queensway, which is our main transit hub. And the hospital was they did Noticeably, not include which is Queensway, our main transit And the hub. hospital was very controversial, both from, you know, planning, as well as our council and the neighborhood and everything where, you know, around 400 meters of that transit stop, you know, up to six story apartment buildings are now allowed even in the heritage area. So as of right, so that's implemented now. Like, isn't there helicopter concerns too around the hospital? Yeah. So that one, I directly contacted people at Interior Health and the person who runs the helicopter there. And technically the transit oriented areas, legislation says within 200 meters, you have to go up to 12 stories.

24:31 Yeah. And then from 200 to 400 meters in a radius, you have to be allowed to go up to six stories. Yeah. We did get an exemption from the ministry because of the heliport yes anything built more than six stories would interfere with like the operations and safety of the heliport yeah so that one was allowed to be just six stories building across yeah the 400 meters so have the 400 meters so have you guys had any pushback from people building a fourplex in a suburban neighborhood i think that like i think that like in the suburban, it's going to have limited uptake. Yeah. Because most of those neighborhoods were built, let's say like the 90s onwards. Yeah. And a lot of the homes are not old enough really to like to demo and rebuild. There might be some plots where you have enough space to get some construction material and then you want to do a unit in the back.

25:13 Yeah. Depending on slope on all those factors. And it's any combination of four units in the suburbs like so it could be a house suite carachos and another single family dwelling could be two single family dwellings with suites so it's any sort of combo yeah i don't think as much i think as much uptake probably i haven't seen anything come through yet development permits are required at any three units or more. So we haven't seen any DPs in for suburban infill. We've seen lots in for core area. Yeah. You think it's a bit of a blessing in disguise for the city that the market is just slower right now while you guys implement all the changes? Would you guys rather it was just zinging and you're just getting them through? What's best for you? Yeah, obviously. It's like, can't get it too. Like we would love to have lots of housing for everybody who wants to declone it at The obvious answer is Kiki needed like, Like we would too.

25:57 love to have lots of housing for everybody who wants to move to Kelowna at an affordable price for everybody. Me too. Where do I vote? Sounds easy. I'll vote for Adam. vote for Adam. Yeah, supply and affordability and sensitivity with all the existing neighborhoods. So yeah, there's a lot of objectives in planning and development. Like sometimes there's trade-offs. I just think of like yeah, think of like a neighborhood like Wilden. So let's say you live in Wilden, you're not really paying attention to the news. You live there for a few years, and then all of a sudden there's a fourplex going beside you. Are they going to love that? And then they go to complain, and then they realize, oh, this has been in the zoning for four years now. I feel like it hasn't really sunken in that that's possible over there.

26:38 Yeah, those ones, though, if if you see especially new subdivisions yeah like the amount of host that's built on like the building yes covenant yes covenant yes yeah you know there's there's usually practically not much area to like yeah expand to like on those lots they're yeah to like on those lots they're pretty efficiently built out yeah but i mean there are could be some exceptions there what about like the but i mean there are could be some exceptions there about like the newer areas like what is it called olive pond place or whatever like those kind of areas? Like those are just lots right now or are going to be lots. So they could do that there, right? They could do that. So like let's say bare lots. Yeah. Currently, like we definitely confirmed with the ministry and some single family developers were asking us whether their building schemes still apply. And currently the ministry said yes, but they said they are reviewing that.

27:20 And if that becomes a problem or achieving certain targets, they might change it. So what that means essentially is that single family developers could put a billing scheme on limiting it to one unit per lot. But that is a private agreement between the developer and the homeowner and future homeowners or homeowners in the area. So only enforcement of that would be from litigation between suing each other, like either the developer suing, you know, an old property owner that's now building something that it was against the scheme or existing neighbors. So where the city would not be in the way of building that. Interesting. Okay. Do you guys have any guys have any fast track? Like you brought up a really cool point that I think is overlooked so often is do you have fast track designs for like a Interesting. Okay. seen units or we want to build a fourplex. But like, if you already have a million dollar structure, economically, it doesn't really make sense. But if you can throw a little carriage house in the back, do you have any fast track options?

28:04 Or like, is the city looking to support that more? Yes, I would say that's like always supported like kind of any infill housing. I mean, the fast track is really meant for more like demo rebuild, you know, like efficiency of number of units on a site. So yes, you could add units to your property and if three or more units, then you would just be a development permit that's approved by staff. So there would be just a review and the purpose mostly of these development permits. The province wanted municipalities to be light touch on like forming character and how the buildings look. So we do have forming character guidelines, but the real focus is quite heavy on like site planning. So landscaping, parking, garbage recycling, some of the fundamentals of how it actually works, whether there's a lane or no lane. Characterizes have been like way down over the last couple of years in terms of building. And I think it has a lot to do with the significant increase in DCCs that happened a few years ago, a couple of years ago, where it went from $2,500 to $30,000 approximately.

28:45 I don't have the exact number. It depends on which area you're in. But with this new small scale multi-unit housing, like anywhere in the core area, we actually got rid of carriage houses. So there's no such thing as carriage houses anymore in the core area. And the reasoning is, is that carriage houses like had the high DCC amount, which was basically, I think only a thousand or $2,000 cheaper than a single family dwelling. You were restricted to the amount of area you could have, and you could only do two stories in height and it had different setbacks where you you now, if if in the core, if you just build another unit that you can sell, the DCCs are similar and you can go up to three stories. So there's more flexibility now just to have a unit and not like a carriage house.

29:29 The key thing about carriage houses is that they're not allowed to be stratified. So you can't use them as like a real estate entity to sell or finance. They were just meant to be another dwelling unit for rental income or for family use. So obviously, it increased the value of your property, but you couldn't sell the unit. So keratoses do exist now in the suburban areas and the rural areas. You still can do keratoses. In the rural areas, you have to have at least a hectare of land for enough area for septic. You can do that in the suburbs, but in the core area, we're saying it's any sort of unit, any combo of units. So there's not such thing as a carriage house per se.

30:11 Okay. So is it possible to have a basement suite, stratify it and then sell it? Classic in the city planning world is always like, it depends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would say it depends by, I would say it depends by, like when you say secondary suite, secondary suite has a certain building classification, usually has less fire separations between the units so i mean you could convert a secondary suite to just a regular dwelling unit kind of like a duplex or a city attached to either way you just share a wall i mean there's just different like building code implications but sure you'd have to upgrade the unit so that you can be able to sell it like in terms of those fire separations and those things. to in terms of those But yeah.

30:52 That's interesting. I guess if someone's building a new house, you could build that in. The big difference, though, also, like if you have a house with a suite, it's a cost-benefit analysis because as soon as you put it to another unit, that's when you're paying your DCCs. Yes. You know, the cost charges. So there's a lot of upfront money, but at least then you have a unit to sell like i'm thinking like people have basement suites and mortgage helpers but like i guess you can Yes. You i'm thinking like people have basement suites and mortgage helpers but like i guess you can kind of look at the same way if you're going to sell it for three or four hundred thousand dollars at the end kind of different way to do it yeah i mean it'd i mean it'd be a cost benefit like yeah quite possible as a house in a suite let's say but you have enough area in the back to build another dwelling or a duplex, then you could stratify all the units.

31:41 And that would be called like a strata conversion because you would demo the existing house. You're just building, let's say, two units in the back and then you would stratify all the units. The key there though is that the existing home and the suite have to be up to like kind of current BC building code. So what I've heard from our building department is that 80s homes or earlier, it's fairly simple to do it 70 homes or maybe 60s homes and older are you know hard to do unless they've been recently renovated yeah like to those studs yeah makes sense i'm glad we've had you on before so they've been recently renovated yeah like to those studs yeah makes i'm glad we've had you on before so we feel more friendly and gymnastics because i feel like matt and i are just peppering questions like, Hey, what about this? What about this?

32:22 But every angle, this is kind of my last question. Then I'll get more, you know, lighthearted and personal, but what excites you? Like, what is the best opportunity you're seeing in Kelowna, whether it's like an investor or just a person that wants to buy a house or like as a city planner, like, Hey, I think we're doing a really good job in this area. And I see in five or 15 years that, you know, it's going to be just an amazing neighborhood to live in. Like, what's your kind of favorite area for future planning? Well, I think there's matt there's a few different areas depending upon response. So like in terms of like just pure investment and what's probably good is kind of in the transit oriented areas from the provincial government. So specifically around like the hospital area where it's MF4 or let's say in Rutland. In those areas, the provincial government banned municipalities from requiring any parking. So it just gives some extra flexibility for development in those areas.

33:04 I mean, I think practically like our parking rates, I think are pretty close to demand, especially, let's say, in the infill housing. But if you could squeeze in five units and four parking spaces and one of them was a rental unit that maybe not necessarily need parking space. I mean, it is tough to sell units without a parking space, but rental units, I think you could maybe do it maybe a little easier, especially if you're doing a small apartment So building. I think there could maybe do maybe a little it, especially easier, if you're doing a small apartment building. So I think there's some kind of unique opportunities in those transit-oriented areas. I opportunities in those transit-oriented areas. I do think there's like ongoing transformation of the downtown in particular. Same with South Pendoza, but South Pendoza, I think, has really been captured a lot in terms of value. I told the developer, Water Street by by the park when they first came in and they were looking for land to purchase. Back then, if you remember, Leon Avenue was kind of the tent city. And I said, you know, Leon and Lawrence definitely have the potential to be kind of like Coal Harbor 2.0, right next to City Park, you know, right off the highway.

33:50 And, you I know, feel like there's a huge potential in Leon and Lawrence over time you to, right know, off the highway. you And, I know, feel like there's a huge potential in Leon and Lawrence over time to, you know, transform like radically from like value expectations. But I think also just in the regular housing, I would say, I think the most exciting area would probably be the North End. Like we do have a North End plan going on right now, as well as the mill site is getting reinvigorated. It was kind of a delay on the mill site over the last year or two, but there's a new sort of applicant team over there and they're wanting to get to council and they're getting really excited about the future redevelopment of the mill off last site. So I do think the North End has also a real transformation potential from what it is right now. Even existing homes that are there like turning into infill housing and what that neighborhood could be in the next 10 or 15 years yeah maybe in all of the cities i agree man the the north end there like the mill site not to uh put too much pressure on you but i would feel as the city like an immense amount of pressure because that's kind of the last big vacant land space that's like so close to the downtown core that like you know whatever is put there is really going to shape the city moving forward so yeah can you shed any light on what the plan is there adam yep and if anybody wants i'm the yep and if anybody wants i'm the planner assigned to that file doing oh my god okay lay it on us spill the deets so the applicant they need to do a concept plan and there there is an area of redevelopment plan.

35:13 And there's a whole checklist of submissions that they have to make. And so they're right now just kind of like general concept. So they're hoping to go to council at the end of summer, maybe in fall. And then later on, finalize the plan and then do it like an OCP and zoning amendments. There is still some cleanup on the site. So there are things that like logistically would take a while before like, let's say a building permit comes, but they're also kind of trying to focus their time more on trying to figure out phase one so that there's not a big time gap between let's say plan approval, zoning approval, and then like building permit. Yeah. It's a long term, it's a massive site that obviously couldn't build that all out in like one building permit. Yeah. It's a long term. It's a massive site that, you know, obviously couldn't build that all out in like one building permit.

35:55 doing Yeah. So, you know, it has to be kind of phased. And they're also looking at like different amenities that, you know, the city and the general neighborhood would benefit from with development and how it would benefit from it on a per phase basis as well. Yeah, that's something to keep an eye on. No doubt. know we would benefit from it on a per phase basis as well yeah that's something to we would benefit from it on a per phase basis as well yeah that's something to keep an eye on no doubt so when they pour the concrete on that are you gonna put your hands in it and let them check this year i helped plan this told you there's gonna be hardball questions coming at you yeah no i didn't have an no i didn't have an opportunity to do that on all the other previous files that i worked on like water street by the park or movalla or one water for, Ella.

36:37 It is nice doing some construction tours. I have been privileged to do a couple of construction tours and seeing the views from some of these places before they're finished construction. And it's way different when you don't have windows on it. I don't know. For some reason, the way the interior of these buildings are designed, you feel completely comfortable at the 30th tower or 30th floor. But when there's no windows, it's really nervous. Yes, I can imagine. Yes, I can imagine. Yeah. Especially if you're a little afraid of heights if you're a of like I am. It makes you look at that famous painting when all the construction workers are hanging on that beam. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you look at it a little differently when you're like, God, I'm scared of being in this condo without windows. Yeah. Imagine. You'd be able to lunch on a suspended I-beam like that.

37:17 Yeah, that'd be crazy. Yeah. All right, Adam, we're going to jump into a wrap-up questions. If you could buy one property in the Okanagan in the next 12 months, what would it be? Well, I would probably say, because I'm focused on redevelopment, and let's say if you're going for, as an investor point of view, some lots in South Rutland. I think a lot of the core area in fill housing lots, maybe like the land has been a little bit overpriced. And there are some beautiful streets north of Springfield in Rutland. And I think there's potential to really transform those areas. Like Mitchell Road. I was going to say, did you pay Adam 20 bucks? Adam 20 bucks? You're just trying to pump up your list. You're describing my list. You're describing my land assembly in Mitchell. Opportunities right there. Unprompted. The values are different there than, let's say, you know, in the Mission or in different suburbs.

37:58 But, I don't know, with redevelopment and new construction, with the proximity to everything, I do think there's some really good potential there. I love it. Over time. Any advice to give your 20-year-old self? What would it be? Let's say, don't fret so much for university university is overrated i love it it i like it i like it yeah that's good advice i actually do agree with that you don't need university if you're buying one of need university if you're buying one of matt's listings what's your favorite charity or how do you get back my wife's would definitely be probably the wife's would definitely be probably the bcs bca yeah she volunteered on the board for quite some time sad day for that building to burn then to burn then yesterday yeah yeah the thrift store building yeah yeah the thrift store yeah yeah i think everybody did it yeah everybody did it like it was at lunchtime and i was walking what is that check cast net instantly yeah okay yeah at least it was an abandoned building and hopefully nobody got hurt there.

38:44 But yeah, it was a very black smoke, though. That was a fun. It looked way more serious than a single building fire. Yeah, exactly. I agree with that. Totally. Yeah. But I'd probably say for It looked way more serious I'd probably say for me, I do like to send a Smurler Foundation. I'm big into the curling world and my daughter needed a lot of NICU support. We like to donate there every Scotty's Turn Red Heart every year. So that's fantastic. fantastic. OK, how can Taylor or I or a listener help you? What can we do for you, Adam? You know, I would say stay involved. People paying attention and actually getting feedback. You'd be surprised. People think that we get inundated as planners, but it's usually not as much as you think it would be, especially if it's constructive or like having suggestions. Those are very rare about plans or development. Yeah. So I don't have any social media handles or anything. I just have my email address. You put in the show notes. Yeah. I love emailing. You guys answer the questions so well. Like, I think that we had the best planning department.

39:24 I'd like to implement you guys. So. Well, appreciate that. I mean, we were one of the first municipalities to get all the provincial housing bills implemented. Yeah. No, yeah, you guys are really quite good to work with. So love to have you. Okay, stop pumping his tires. Okay, stop pumping his tires. Yeah, he pumped your listing. And then we're going to circle back to Mitchell Road. No, you guys are awesome. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for coming back on it's been a long time but lots of information to unpack there and yeah i always appreciate chatting with you it doesn't feel so long because we see each other all the time at college gymnastics feel so long because we see each other all the time at college feel but yes okay well have a great afternoon and uh yeah appreciate your time hey pleasure for having me on. Thank you. uh yeah